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Old 05-11-2014, 10:17 AM
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Default Curing with Insulation or Without?

Hi,

I'm just finishing up the high temp mortar on my Professionale 110 trailer. Should the curing be done before or after the insulation has been installed. It seems like this should be a simple answer but I'm confused as to which comes first.

Thanks,

Sean
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Old 05-11-2014, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

I've seen it both ways, so do what ever works for you. Key is a slow and patient cure.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:59 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

Ditto with Russell. But personal preference is with, equalises temperature so oven moves as one therefore minimising potential of cracks.
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:18 PM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

I am a relative newbie to all of this, but I have plenty of masonry and construction experience and believe that moisture would be better driven out w/drying fires with no insulation on the outside. Why would you want to drive all that water/steam right into your insulation, which is designed (I believe) to not get wet? Where does one think the moisture is going to go? I may not be qualified enough to say either way is right or wrong, but I for one, will be sure my oven, when done, will be dried out w/out any insulation. When I feel it's thoroughly dried out, I'll add my insulation. I wouldn't even consider doing it any other way. But, that's just me.
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:28 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

yes I get what you say. However the oven dries out with the insulation on.

Now let me paint a different picture of most ovens built on this site.

As per your comments

You dry the oven [no insulation]
put insulation on a dry oven. all ok.

then

a 4" vermiculate layer loaded with WATER over the blanket.
What happens the blanket gets WET and needs to be dried.

Unless of course you are building a dog house then you just poor in dry vermiculate.

The blanket being on simply equalises the temperature throughout the oven I believe preventing cracking. Flame is not consistent and you get hot spots possibly creating movement therefore cracking. Yes taking longer to rid the dome of moisture but it does dry out.

anyway just my 2 bobs [20cents] worth, each to their own. Your way works, and any other method will work it is just about what it is we feel precious about with me it was cracks.

When I did mine [thermocouples in place] I had absolute consistent temperature [10deg difference internal and external brick temps around my dome.
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Last edited by oasiscdm; 05-11-2014 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 05-12-2014, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oasiscdm View Post
yes I get what you say. However the oven dries out with the insulation on.

Now let me paint a different picture of most ovens built on this site.

As per your comments

You dry the oven [no insulation]
put insulation on a dry oven. all ok.

then

a 4" vermiculate layer loaded with WATER over the blanket.
What happens the blanket gets WET and needs to be dried.

Unless of course you are building a dog house then you just poor in dry vermiculate.

The blanket being on simply equalises the temperature throughout the oven I believe preventing cracking. Flame is not consistent and you get hot spots possibly creating movement therefore cracking. Yes taking longer to rid the dome of moisture but it does dry out.

anyway just my 2 bobs [20cents] worth, each to their own. Your way works, and any other method will work it is just about what it is we feel precious about with me it was cracks.

When I did mine [thermocouples in place] I had absolute consistent temperature [10deg difference internal and external brick temps around my dome.
I also get where you are coming from and respect your opinions. However, just because a person might get their blanket wet, why would they want to hold in even more water by keeping the interior water trapped in by the insulation? Again, not saying either is right or wrong and we all have our own opinions. I do, however, stand by my line of thinking. Also, I don't plan on getting my insulation wet, if I can help it. When the intention is getting the water out w/drying fires, etc., I just don't see where any method of holding it in serves any purpose. Again, that's just me.
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Old 05-12-2014, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oasiscdm View Post
yes I get what you say. However the oven dries out with the insulation on.

Now let me paint a different picture of most ovens built on this site.

As per your comments

You dry the oven [no insulation]
put insulation on a dry oven. all ok.

then

a 4" vermiculate layer loaded with WATER over the blanket.
What happens the blanket gets WET and needs to be dried.

Unless of course you are building a dog house then you just poor in dry vermiculate.

The blanket being on simply equalises the temperature throughout the oven I believe preventing cracking. Flame is not consistent and you get hot spots possibly creating movement therefore cracking. Yes taking longer to rid the dome of moisture but it does dry out.

anyway just my 2 bobs [20cents] worth, each to their own. Your way works, and any other method will work it is just about what it is we feel precious about with me it was cracks.

When I did mine [thermocouples in place] I had absolute consistent temperature [10deg difference internal and external brick temps around my dome.
I subscribe to this theory too Colin.As I see it the application of vermicrete really just helps achieve a nice shape covering the lumps and bumps of the blanket. If you want more insulation give the thing an extra layer of blanket. Therefore only around an inch and a half is required to even out the shape and as this is not a particularly deep layer it will dry mostly with sun and wind in a week. A much deeper layer will take ages to dry out. If you really want a deep vermicrete layer then do it in stages and let each layer dry for a week before applying the next layer. I've done lots of ovens this way and found it my best procedure to date.
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Old 05-13-2014, 02:56 AM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

It appears that both ways work. It depends on where you are, the tropics with a drying sun will give you a different result than in temperate climes. I did the vcrete over the blanket but had ideal drying conditions and it worked for me.

The slow dry/cure is the go and I did that before the final render coat. The behaviour of the oven (with similar fuel loads) certainly is the best indicator as to how the drying/curing process is going.

All about patience.
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

Two things I'd agree on. Yes, both ways work. And patience is the most important thing. However, unless someone can produce documentation from the insulation manufacturer stating that getting their insulation wet/soaked w/vapor and steam does no harm to it, I'm sticking to drying without. It's never been about whether it works or not. Of course it will eventually dry out, why wouldn't it? But just because it eventually dries out, doesn't mean it's ok to soak it and you don't know if it's long term efficiency has been compromised. I do have to say that I am not familiar w/ceramic insulation, only fiberglass, which I know is not what we all use. W/fiberglass, if it gets wet, it needs to be replaced. Ceramic may be different. I'd need to see some documented evidence that it makes no difference. Until then......
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: Curing with Insulation or Without?

NC,

Do what you think you need to do, documented or not. A lot of our building processes are based our experiences and those preceding us. I sure what ever direction you go will be just fine.
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