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Old 05-14-2011, 03:09 AM
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Default Recipe from an 1893 book.

Recipe from an 1893 book.
We went to a book fair today and I picked up an old book on, Cements, Glues & Gums.

Fireproof cement No 2.
180 parts of iron filings.
45 parts lime.
8 parts common salt,
Vinegar.

Mix all into a paste with the vinegar and let dry thoroughly before heating.
This cement becomes stone hard on heating.
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

bricke have you or is you going to try this , maybe stick 2 fire brick together and put them in that lovely oven of yours see how strong .. and post results . because i can not find fire clay . to make homebrew ..
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

I will try it for sure, there is a metal fabrication shop just down the road where I can get iron filings from on Monday..

Itll be interesting to see if it works or not.

Any chemists on the forum who can see what is going to happen with this brew?
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Last edited by brickie in oz; 05-14-2011 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:42 AM
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Thumbs up Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonlovepizza View Post
bricke have you or is you going to try this , maybe stick 2 fire brick together and put them in that lovely oven of yours see how strong .. and post results . because i can not find fire clay . to make homebrew ..
Do you have firebricks? If yes, after cutting them for your dome, there will be a surprising amount of fire brick powder you can substitute for the fireclay.
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

i will try this also. see how much dust i still have a lot of cut.s to do as i am going to cut each brick into three 100mm pieces have 160 brick so alot of cuts .hope then alot a dust , an i will be dry cutting with my converted wood chopsaw it even has one of them little dust bags on back .no water
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

I don't know about the chemical properties but I have to imagine that with that much iron in the mix it would have to act a little like a cast iron skillet.
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

Hello brickie, BriggsARNP, jonlovepizza,

Is it good to use fireproof cement as mortar?

I searched for "fire clay" suppliers in Ireland, then came to the conclusion that it may be known by a different name there. * I've heard it called "masons clay" and "masonry clay" among other names. If you can't source dry powdered clay then consult with a potter or ceramist about wet clay or slip. You'll have to soak wet clay to make it mix easier and determine the amount to add to the Portland, sand, and lime ingredients.

* I read an account of two Americans who were visiting England and went to a restaurant for breakfast. They ordered "pancakes", but this term confused the waiter. The Americans went on to describe how they were made but had no luck with the waiter understanding exactly what they wanted. Soon, another waiter passed the table carrying a plate and one of the fellows said "See, those things that he's serving to the other table". "Ah yes, said the waiter. Those are "griddle cakes". Different names, same product.

Cheers,
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

Quote:
180 parts of iron filings.
45 parts lime.
8 parts common salt,
Vinegar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brickie in oz View Post
I will try it for sure, there is a metal fabrication shop just down the road where I can get iron filings from on Monday..

Itll be interesting to see if it works or not.

Any chemists on the forum who can see what is going to happen with this brew?
I'm a chemist, so I'll give it my best shot...

The vinegar will react with the lime to give you calcium acetate. I'm guessing that you'll have an excess of the lime (calcium oxide). Under these conditions, the iron will probably oxidize, probably to iron(2+), if not in the initial mix then in the heating. (So it won't be like a skillet.)

Heating under these conditions, with the acetate present, will likely result in a reducing environment giving iron(2+) oxide or mixed iron(2+/3+) oxide along with the calcium oxide. You're essentially making an iron oxide ceramic.

I'm not sure what the role of the salt is, although it probably mediates the oxidation of the iron.

My big question would be temperature. Since this needs to be fired, how high does it need to be heated? And what would its strength be in a large joint?

And one last question - if this material's thermal expansion coefficient is significantly different than that of the firebrick, something's gonna crack on heating or cooling. (Sometimes there's a reason why old chemical recipes got abandoned...)
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Old 05-15-2011, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

Hello All,

Salt melts at 801 C. However in the presence of other ingredients that melt at lower temperatures the salt will also melt. Not being a chemist I would have to think that those other ingredients would have to melt near the same as salt to get the desired combined effect.

YouTube has a video of salt being melted within an induction coil. Interesting, sort of.......watching salt melt.

If you try to make this cement then consider the purity of salt used in 1893. Today, table salt may have potassium iodide and magnesium carbonate added. Don't breathe the fumes.

Cheers,
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:19 AM
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Default Re: Recipe from an 1893 book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azpizzanut View Post
Don't breathe the fumes.
That's pretty good advice for any mix that's baking out...

It's not as simple as the mp of salt (which you might never reach anyways). Combinations of mixtures may melt at lower temperatures... and it might be that the salt melting (what little there is) is a necessary part of the material setting up.
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