Go Back   Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community > General > Chit Chat

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-11-2011, 06:24 AM
Lburou's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DFW area, USA
Posts: 1,111
Question Defining the terms "Ciment Fondu" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

I'm not sure in every case what is meant by "Ciment Fondu".

At the Wesco refractory, they called it 'fondu' and said I could use it for mortar. The bag I bought is labeled 'calcium aluminate cement'. There are instructions for accelerating cement on the bag.

As an aside, this refractory makes a castable refractory cement: The owner mentioned a simple castable refractory recipe that included this calcium aluminate cement plus aggregate and something else.

I see Australians use the term ciment fondu (Using different types of mortar)....Is it the same type of product?

Regardless of the down side of a quick set, I'm going to experiment with it and see if I can't use it in my home brew mortar (reducing the lime portion as necessary if it sets too fast). I'll be building the dome in 70F weather real soon, so I don't expect a set time that is too rapid like when it is hot outside.

What is your experience with calcium aluminate cements (in home brew mortar)?
__________________
Lee B.
DFW area, Texas, USA

If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

An album showing our Thermal Breaks is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Lburou; 02-27-2011 at 06:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-11-2011, 09:57 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Washington State USA
Posts: 777
Default Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

Lee,
I used calcium aluminate cement in the refractory for my WFO. It was called Fondu. There is no final "e" on the name, here's a link:
Kerneos Inc.

I think the word "fondue" has to do with a melted food (cheese or chocolate) into which one dips pieces of bread or fruit etc.

There has been a bit of discussion on the subject I would suggest checking the archives and/or my thread: "Steel Dome Oven".

Bests,
Wiley
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Lburou's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DFW area, USA
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

Thanks Wiley....Kernos is the manufacturer of my fondu cement. I changed the spelling in the OP soas not to confuse anyone else. I did a search, but didn't find what I was looking for. I'll be substituting the fondu for portland in the home brew....I'd like to hear from those who have done the same.


Next time I visit Wesco refractories, I'll get the recipe for a castable refractory mix so we can make our own castable home brew using the fondu cement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
Lee,
I used calcium aluminate cement in the refractory for my WFO. It was called Fondu. There is no final "e" on the name, here's a link:
Kerneos Inc.

I think the word "fondue" has to do with a melted food (cheese or chocolate) into which one dips pieces of bread or fruit etc.

There has been a bit of discussion on the subject I would suggest checking the archives and/or my thread: "Steel Dome Oven".

Bests,
Wiley
__________________
Lee B.
DFW area, Texas, USA

If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

An album showing our Thermal Breaks is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Lburou; 02-11-2011 at 10:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-11-2011, 11:26 AM
david s's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,735
Default Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

Apparently it is the ingredient added to rapid set concrete. When used with either portland cement or lime you will get a reaction that speeds up the setting time. The trade name is Ciment Fondu.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-11-2011, 02:40 PM
david s's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,735
Default Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

Lee,
Even the smallest amount of lime combined with the calcium aluminate cement will act as an accelerant. I think you are better to eliminate the lime entirely from the mix, but by all means try it for yourself. A popular castable mix for kiln castable parts is 5 parts crushed firebrick to one part cal. Alum. Cement by volume. proprietary castable refractory mixes contain fly ash, and aggregates (grog which is crushed fired fire clay capable of standing up to thermal shock and fibres which burn out to create holes where moisture can escape) Making up your own brew is a difficult task, probably better to stick to a proprietary mix rather than invent your own which may fail.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-11-2011, 05:12 PM
Lburou's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DFW area, USA
Posts: 1,111
Thumbs up Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

Thanks David

I will do some test mixes prior to starting.

I'd still like to hear from someone who has elected to use the home brew with the calcium aluminate option.....Anyone?
__________________
Lee B.
DFW area, Texas, USA

If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

An album showing our Thermal Breaks is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:35 PM
Lburou's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DFW area, USA
Posts: 1,111
Thumbs up A report on "Ciment Fondu" & "Calcium Aluminate in 'Home Brew' mortar

Well, I'm almost done with my dome and have been using the home brew with the calcium aluminate option. No regrets.

It worked well with a little cautious experimentation. When we get to the lime container, we use about one fourth or one fifth of a measure and it set in 5-15 minutes, depending on the amount of water added. The outside air temperature has run between 55 F and 80 F. It does set up faster the warmer it gets!

It seemed easy enough to use, just don't mix too much at one time, one half a liter to one liter worked well for us.

BTW, leaving the lime out entirely allowed us 15-20 minutes working time, which is too long for me when you get up to the steeper chains of your dome. HTH

__________________
Lee B.
DFW area, Texas, USA

If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

An album showing our Thermal Breaks is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-26-2011, 08:18 PM
david s's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,735
Default Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

"one half a liter to one liter "

So what were the proportions and materials of your final recipe?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-27-2011, 06:33 AM
Lburou's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DFW area, USA
Posts: 1,111
Thumbs up Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

Quote:
Originally Posted by david s View Post
"one half a liter to one liter "

So what were the proportions and materials of your final recipe?
Hello David

The recipe in the pompeii plans is:

1 part calcium aluminate (we used ciment fondu)
3 parts sand
1 part fire clay (we used hawthorne blend clay)
1 part lime (....I don't recommend any lime!....)

We used that recipe, but withheld 75% of the lime recommended (working in the 55-80 F temperatures).

The recipe, without lime, set in 15-20 minutes if you don't water it down.
Heeding your cautions about use of lime, we were cautious with the lime and found that using 25% the recommended rate of lime worked for us at those temperatures. In the end, we eliminated lime altogether.

We dry mixed a gallon sized bucket of ingredients, then mixed small amounts taken from that dry mix with water. We used about half or one liter of the dry mix as needed and added water, that way we always had fresh mortar. Our mortar would hold most bricks after four or six minutes, except the last few chains....We are taking longer up there.

ADDED:
For the last four or five chains, I inserted a pilates ball and didn't have any more problems holding bricks in place -I recommend this without reservation.
I can imagine this mixture setting in <one minute at 90 F if using the original recipe.

I used this process to take advantage of the improved heat absorption and heat holding characteristics supposedly found in this mixture over the Portland option. More than one member has recommended eliminating the lime from the FB pompeii plan recipe....I see both sides of the issue.

Thanks David for your caution about use of lime in this mixture, we took your advice and went slowly.

ADDED:
When you accelerate cement (concrete), there is a tendency to form small cracks on the surface of the concrete because of the rapid shrinkage. I have noted some tiny surface cracks in the mortar but do not expect any leaks or other problems. That is the only down side so far.
__________________
Lee B.
DFW area, Texas, USA

If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

An album showing our Thermal Breaks is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Lburou; 05-23-2011 at 03:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-23-2011, 06:13 AM
Serf
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Merrill, WI
Posts: 19
Default Re: Defining the terms "Cement Fondue" & "Calcium Aluminate Cement"

I am waiting for some pics of your build.

In the mean time can you or someone else tell me what you use the lime for in this mix? I was under an uneducated assumption that the Ciment Fondu was a complete refractory cement solution.

My interest is in using The Ciment Fondu or HeatStop 50 or any similar product for a self cast oven, most likely in several pieces.

I wonder if it would be acceptable to add the sand and/or some clay to the refractory cement in self cast pieces for a WFO? The idea being to get some more product for the oven pieces at a lower price. Or would the sand and clay weaken the pieces too much for self standing cast oven pieces?

Thanks for any comments or wisdom on materials and methods.

John
Merrill, WI

PS I think my local Cement provider has quoted me $68.00 for what they are calling a 40 pound pail of HeatStop II, (that seems kind of high and I haven't seen reference to a 40 pound package anywhere else).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
2006/10 Forno Bravo, LLC