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Old 05-11-2012, 07:42 AM
banhxeo76's Avatar
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Default My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

I love bread. The main reason why I am building a WFO is because of bread. While I was in France with my wife 4 years ago, we stayed at a bed and breakfast in a little town called Beaune (Burgundy Region) and there was a bakery about 50 feet from where we were staying. In opinion, the smell of bake bread from that bakery is just amazing. I firmly believe that is what heaven smell like. Of course, it tasted even better than it smelled. I have never realized that bread could taste this good. I asked myself “Why can’t I get this piece of heaven back home in New Orleans?” Soon, I realized that the baker was using WFO to bake their bread. I told myself that if I ever win a lottery, I will buy a WFO.

After a few years go by, I tried to bake sour dough bread with my gas oven. It was awful. I also did some pizza with my gas oven as well with a pizza stone but it was nowhere close to the pizza I have in New York City. Then with a wild hair up my ass, I researched on how to get a prefect New York Pizza online and I found this website created by a guy name Jeff Varasonos. Jeff Varasano's NY Pizza Recipe. I realized the only way I can get great pizza is to have high heat. I even tried to by past the oven lock and turn on the cleaning cycle on my gas oven to get high heat but my Electrolux gas oven was too smart. Yes, I crazy enough to build my house down just for a pizza. However, Jeff mentioned that WFO is even better to make pizza. And it just hit me. Not only I can use the WFO to cook pizza, I can also make BREAD like the one in France.

So, I begin to research extensive research on WFO for bread and I found a lot of people recommended using a designed from Alan Scott. So, I went ahead and purchased a book called The Bread Builders by Daniel Wing and Alan Scott. I studied that book like I was studying for the CPA. I carried that book everywhere I go. I studied the plan like my life depended on it.
In additional, I even purchased a DVD from this guy named Rando from down under part of the world and his DVD has a lot of details photos of step by step on how to build a barrel vault WFO. However, one day, I ran into this website called Forno Bravo. I look at the igloo WFO and it looks beautiful. However, the igloo WFO looked a lot harder to build. I just accepted the fact that barrel vault is more for ability and it would be crazy to think about igloo. So, I went ahead pour concrete for barrel vault designed because my decision was set in stone.

However, I just couldn’t get the igloo out of my head and I think have some Eskimo blood inside of me. I study more into Forno Bravo forum and I was talked out of barrel vault WFO. Damn Igloo, you got me at first sight!
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  #2  
Old 05-11-2012, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

I brought The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart as a guide to bake bread because I have never bake bread successfully ever before. However, there was a big learning curve for me. You see, the way I cook, I tend to improvised and make a lot of change based on how I feel like a jazz musician. The food that I cooked on the stove will never taste the exactly same because I never use measurement spoon/cup. It is just the way I cook.

Unfortunately, I tried to do that with baking bread as well. Well, let me tell you something (one of many New Orleanians sayings), it just wouldn’t work. You have to follow each step faithfully and there is no short cut when it comes to baking bread. So, I have to change my approach on how to do thing which was a struggle for me because I am not wired to be a baker I supposed. However, the smell of heaven is enough motivation just is keeping me on course to bake the prefect bread, well....most of the time.

About 6 weeks ago, I attempted to bake my first bread by baking baguette by using a very wet dough. The hydration was about 70% and it was retarded in the refrigerator for two nights. Since I was only baking only 6 baguettes, I figured that I don’t need a big fire. Let me tell you, wet dough is very hard to handle and it was more like long skinny ciabatta than a typical baguette. The reason why I want to try this recipe is because Reinhart stated that it was the best baguette that he have ever tasted when he was in Paris…the center of the universe for BREAD. It was a mistake because it was hard to handle especially for beginning like myself and most likely, I may have skip a lot of important step to get it right. After the WFO is heated for 90 minutes of medium fire, and saturated for another 1 hours, the temperature was about 500 F. I figured that I don't need a big fire because I have small going on from a couple of days ago. I noticed that the dough has not risen much so I waited another 20 minutes for the dough to rise. After, 15 minutes, I notice the temperature has drop to 475 F which was rather fast with the door closed. So, I just went ahead put in the not fully rise dough in the oven. And use a spray bottle to get some water into the oven at the beginning. Of course, the bottle spray is a joke because you can’t get enough moisture inside on the oven with a bottle spray. However, I figured that I don’t need to spray much water anyway because my dough was very wet and my oven was cooling down a little too fast for additional water. By the time I close the door, the temperature has dropped to 380 F. Not a good thing. After it was slow cook in the WFO for 45 minutes, it looked very pale compare to one in the photo of the cookbook. After I let it rest, I tried to eat but it was just okay. No, it was awful. I was very disappointed. I tried it with olive oil and butter and it was a disgrace to oil olive and butter if you ask me. By the time my wife and daughter tried it, it was too hard. So, I just dumped it into the trash can. I was ashamed and embarrassed. I refused to take any picture but I wish I did so that I can post here. I was humble by this experience because I believe I am a good cook. Then, I realized that I just have to let it go and learn from this experience. I am sure that a baker in France where I had a tasted of heaven took him years to learn the art of baking hearth bread. Will I ever get to get to taste that bread again? I will ….I will eat that damn bread again my friend.
So, the main problem here is that I was just too cheap on the wood. I was using less wood like I did for pizza. I latter realized that you actually need more wood for bread than you need for pizza. Heat management is something I need to be patience with. There is a learning curve with WFO. You really need to have a patience of a saint to be a great baker. I have a new profound respect for all of the bakers and I have greater respect for bakers who only bake bread with WFO. Peter R Reinhart mentioned in The Bread Baker's Apprentice that he feels confident that you can bake great bread in your gas oven by following his instruction. However, you are on own when it comes to WFO as baking device. He does agree that WFO give you better result for bread. I believe that WFO is the only way you can produce a hearth bread from the old world.
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Last edited by banhxeo76; 05-11-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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  #3  
Old 05-11-2012, 09:39 AM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

Welcome to this forum. There is a wealth of information here and a lot of great people with excellent advice to give.

Your problem could be insufficient insulation or thermal mass, a damp oven, or not enough heat.

I don't know how you built your oven, but unless it has enough thermal mass to hold the heat (thick walls) and insulation (under the floor and over the vault) it won't hold heat well.

Since I take it your oven is fairly new, it may not be be fully dried. Mortar starts out with a lot of water in it and the oven should be slowly dried with small fires over a week or so to dry it out without excessive cracks, and then fully fired up to get out all of the moisture. My oven didn't really get completely dried and hit its stride until I had done small fires and then fired it to pizza temps five or six times, maybe longer. So, your results may improve, perhaps a lot.

I don't think you fired the oven nearly long enough. If you just heat it to bread temperature and then try to bake, it will cool off immediately, as you saw. You have to get the oven fully heat soaked. With my dome this means heating it to pizza temp (900 - 1,000 f dome, 700 - 800 f floor) and then keeping it there for another hour. I then spread the fire and close it up for an hour. I then remove the fire and wait for the oven to slowly cool off to a 550 f floor temp. Then I bake. This takes several hours (during which I make the dough), but the oven will hold its temp long enough for at least three bakes (last one at about 450 - 475 f floor temp).

Unless you are fully loading the oven (about 15 pounds in my case) you do need steam for the first 10 minutes or so, even with very high hydration. With a fully loaded oven the bread produces enough steam to do the job. Try putting a towel in a baking dish (not glass) covering it with boiling water, and putting it in the oven before you load the dough. Remove it after about 10 minutes.

Good luck. Really great bread does take quite a bit of experience, but very good bread, far better than store bought, isn't that hard. If you post pictures of your bread, whole loaves and cut open to show the crust, there are people here who can do an amazing job of diagnosing what you could do better.

Karl
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  #4  
Old 05-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

You are encountering multiple problems. Among which may be a "green" (wet) oven!

First, you doesn't appear that you know or understand your oven yet - how much wood it takes/how long to heat load, etc. I know nothing of your oven, how it is constructed (refractory, brick, ??, barrel vault, igoo), insulation, etc. but a normal igloo should clear in 45 min or so and be ready to bake pizza in only in about an hour. Barrel vaults routinely take somewhat longer. If you stop firing at that point the refractory away from the oven will still be cool and will pull heat from the hot oven and thus the oven cools way too fast. You claim you read Bread Builders. REREAD THE OVEN MANAGEMENT SECTIONS. You have to fire long enough to push heat into the refractory so the heat can be released back to the oven to bake the bread. Refractory is not a great conductor. It takes time to heat load - figure at least two hours, maybe three, of firing to get enough heat to do one batch of bread. And you need to establish a standard so you can anticipate WHEN the oven will be at the temp you want to bake at. As it suggests in Bread Builders, you will fire the oven, remove the coals and the bulk of the ashes, and close it up for a period of time - probably 45 minutes to an hour so the heat can equalize through the refractory. Simultaneously you are proofing the bread so both the dough and the oven will be at the right state at the same time. Then you mop the oven to humidify it and remove more of the ash, and load the bread. If you are to have any consistent success you have to do the dough and oven prep CONSISTENTLY so they can be predictable. This is NOT a good activity for people who want to "do their own thing" and vary either process. You need to find something that works for you and repeat it until you understand both the oven and the bread.

How much bread do you want to do? You will never (in my experience) get a great crust with less than 12 pounds of bread in a 1 meter oven for the humidity won't be high enough and spraying (again in my experience) cools the oven interior too much and doesn't tgive the right results either (but others on this forum will likely disagree).

70% hydration is not particularly high for open crumb artisanal baguettes, even with King Arthur AP flour. And baguettes are the hardest bread to make so --- start with boules and ciabatta - things that don't demand a lot of skill. Save baguettes for after you have the proofing/oven under control - especially since you claim to aspire to make world class baguettes like those you got in France!

Creative cooking is open to "doing your thing", bread is NOT - particularly with respect to flour choice/consistency, dough development, handling, forming, bulk fermentation, and proofing times if you want to have consistent, world class results. There can be some variation in hydration, and you can add small amounts of flours like teff, WW, rye, etc. or seeds/nuts, but... even that variation invites inconsistent results until you KNOW your flour and yeast/levain.

You have to be disciplined to make great bread consistently. While a WFO is the ideal, one can easily make great bread in a conventional oven. Cloches are very close to a WFO in results. Open baking on a stone can work but preferably in an electric oven (gas ovens tend to be too dry due to air flow through the oven related to keeping the flame going). Your perceived gap between WFO and conventional ovens is I think far too large. I consider my indoor breads to be quite interchangeable with my WFO breads.

Reading your posts I am forced to conclude you need to incorporate a lot more discipline in your baking if you are to achieve your goals (without a great deal of frustration).

Karl's comments are good.

I would actually encourage you to bake indoors until you can reliably predict when the dough will be ready to baked three to four hours in advance (say four or five if it is a barrel vault). You need at least that lead time to have the oven ready! Until you can predict the dough you are in a world of uncertainty. While baking indoors, you can solve your oven issues. If you must use gas, get a cloche. They are amazing - or bake on a stone under a stainless bowl (for the first 15 to 20 minutes). (Aluminum roasting pans can be used for short baguettes.)

This is all doable. That you have not been able to do it doesn't mean it can't reasonably be done!

Good Luck!
Jay
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

Karl & Jay,

I go agree that part of the problem was perhaps my WFO was too green when I first attempt to bake bread. In addition, my fire was not big enough or heat long enough for baking bread. At that time, I went against my knowledge from what I learn from reading books and this forum. However like a typical idiot, I did things against the conventional wisdom and hopefully, I will learn from it. Thank for your wealth of knowledge and words of encouragement.

As for my WFO design, the diameter of the cooking floor is 40". I have 2" ceramic insulation board and on top the board is 5" firebrick for cooking surface/hearth (by double stack 2.5" firebricks). My WFO has 4 1/2" firebrick for wall and dome and it also have 2" of concrete cladding on the dome and wall. I finish it off with 3" insulation around the wall and 4" of insulation on the top portion of the dome. The height of my door is 11" and the width of the door is 19". The height inside my dome is 17.40" is gave me the ideal 63% ratio to the door. So, the mass thickness on the floor is about 5" and 6.5" on the wall and dome and I don't think my mass is the problem. The problem is just not enough heat and poor heat management.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:36 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

Hi Tu!

Your oven is PROBABLY not going to cause you problems. Your mass sounds good and your insulation is good though I question that your hearth floor has enough mass to gracefully bake more than one batch of bread without recharging. The Scott design puts the floor on 6 inches of cement (as I recall) with insulating cement (cement and vermiculite) below to increase mass. (It has a lot of mass and the design leaks heat out of the hearth a lot more than the FB design.) Firebrick only on top of insulation board should be great for pizza and one batch of bread but....multiples may be a problem - or may not, only time and experience will tell. Your dome mass sounds good for at least two batches. Given your description I would expect a big fire to heat it to pizza temp in an hour. Another hour will probably have it adequately loaded for a batch of bread. But...like I said earlier, it is important to be consistent so you can learn to predict oven temps. It will probably take a few firings to get a good feel for how your oven cools after the fire is removed (and how long it takes to heat load it to a reasonable level).

Be sure your oven is dry and well cured before you start building big, hot fires to load the oven. Fast heating does encourage cracks! Also, beware of rain if your oven is not covered. I am in San Antonio which is relatively dry but I am going to build a roof over my igloo to keep it dry and reduce my drying out/wet oven events. In NO I would think it would be almost impossible to keep an oven truly dry if it is not covered. And a wet oven can really screw up your baking (I can usually overcome it for pizza but when it is wet I can't get it hot enough to bake bread).

Hang in there! It will eventually come together. If you aren't using a scale...get one. It will save you a lot of heartache and confusion.

Good luck!
Jay
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  #7  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

Well, after 4 weeks of not dealing with my fear of baking bread, I finally take the jump again last Saturday. I prepare to cook two different type of bread. I make some dough for ciabatta and dough for baguettes. This time, I was prepared to let go of the way I usually do things and to bake the bread like a machine by following each steps. I read the instructions a lot of time and try to visualize the process in head a few times. The night before the bake, I cooked my pizza for family for dinner.

I wake up on Saturday morning to take out the poolish and pate fermentee out of the refrigerator that has been in refrigerator for two days. After letting them sit on the counter for 60 minutes, poolish for the ciabatta smell and look very much alive. I proceed to mixed. I mixed the pate fermentee with the new dough for baguette and proceed to the poolish with some more dough for ciabatta. I first mixed the dough by using the kitchenaid mixer and proceed to the counter to mix by hand when it gets too tough for the kitchenaid mixer. At that moment, I was imagining that Alan Scott is standing right next to me and telling me that I am doing a good job. I would knead the dough until the interior temperature was at 79 F. After I done with the dough, I just let them rest for two hours.

I headed to my back yard and started the fire. A very big fire if you care to know. A type of fire that my kids would say “Wowww…so cool!” At this time, I believe that my WFO is cured because it has been fire for the 12th times at least. The heat retention had improved significantly and my WFO air temperature would usually be at 200 F 4 days later. I continue to feed more wood after 45 minutes of burning and by this time, most of the soot had already down to the side of the oven.

After two hours of dough resting, I carefully pour the ciabatta dough onto the counter and fold like envelope. Then I proceed to the baguette dough by separating the dough into 6 pieces and shape the baguettes. At this time, Alan Scott raised his right hand to give high five me (yeah, I need to get out more). Shaping the baguette was a lot of fun. I placed the shaped baguettes onto the floured cloth and let it rise one last time for 75 minutes. Make a quick trip to back yard stop the spread out the embers all over the floor and the close the door to kill the fire. I went back to the ciabatta and fold again and let it rest on the parchment paper. At this time, I was thinking “So, this is what is like to be a baker….Damn, that is a lot work and I am only baking 9 breads!” But it is definitely labor of love.

I head back WFO and remove all of the embers and ashes from the WFO. I then mopped the floor with a damp towel and closed the door again. The air temperature was reading at 675 F.

Went back inside the house and the shaped baguettes was rising beautifully on the table. At that moment, I can just hear Alan Scott said “Bloody mate, you are the man!” Check on the ciabatta on the other table and I just couldn’t be happier. And then..
Attached Thumbnails
My journey to prefect Hearth Bread-img_0845.jpg   My journey to prefect Hearth Bread-img_0846.jpg   My journey to prefect Hearth Bread-img_0850.jpg   My journey to prefect Hearth Bread-img_0851.jpg  
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

After 15 minutes with the door last closed, the WFO air temperature maintained at 675 F. I was then a little concern the dough may be ready within 30 minutes and this oven is way too damn hot for my baguettes. I opened up the door again and proceed to mop the floor again and spray water inside the WFO with a garden sprayer (so much better than the bottle sprayer). Keep the door open to drop the temp for 15 minutes. Went back inside the house and the baguettes is almost ready for oven. I was like, fudge (but I didn’t exactly say fudge). I slash the baguettes with blade. Went back outside and spray some more water inside the WFO to cool it down and place a cast iron skillet pan inside of the oven. Then I closed the door and the air temperature was reading at 600 F. I keep the door closed to let the heat saturated for 15 minutes. Got back inside the house the all six baguettes are screaming at me “Get me in the oven dude” all at the same time. Alan Scott is nowhere to be found for wisdom or word of encouragement. At this time, I decided the baguettes must go in before it started to sink down. I opened the door and loaded all 6 baguettes inside of the oven and pour a cup of water onto the cast iron skillet pan and closed the door. After 30 seconds, I opened the door and spray some water with the garden sprayer for 10 seconds. Then I closed the door. Out of nowhere, Coach Bela Karolyi is screaming at me “Tu, you can do it!” Limply like Kerri Strug, I just replied “Yes, coach!” After another 30 seconds, I opened the door for the last spray for 10 seconds.

Then I just time set the timer for 10 minutes so that I can check on the baguette. The recipe stated that the cooking time is for 20 minutes and rotate the bread at halfway. However, I didn’t put the high heat WFO into consideration and waited exactly 10 minutes. After 10 minutes, I opened and it was burnt! Then I can just hear Alan Scott said “You idiot!”

Even though it was burnt, I still eat it anyway. Despite the fact that it has a burnt taste to it, it was really good. I swear, if I only let it bake for 5 to 7 minutes, it would have been prefect! Of course, the ciabatta went in next and I bake the ciabatta at 550 F and cut the recommended baking time by 1/3. A lot better result! Although the ciabatta looks a lot better than the baguettes, the burnt baguettes taste so much better. The baguettes' crust was really good. I will battle it again. Bagel and Baguettes tommorow!
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Last edited by banhxeo76; 05-11-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2012, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

They're not burnt - that's a full bake. Seriously, as you discovered, the caramelized notes really add to the experience. Congratulations!
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:02 AM
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Default Re: My journey to prefect Hearth Bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by banhxeo76 View Post
After 15 minutes with the door last closed, the WFO air temperature maintained at 675 F. I was then a little concern the dough may be ready within 30 minutes and this oven is way too damn hot for my baguettes. I opened up the door again and proceed to mop the floor again and spray water inside the WFO with a garden sprayer (so much better than the bottle sprayer). Keep the door open to drop the temp for 15 minutes. Went back inside the house and the baguettes is almost ready for oven. I was like, fudge (but I didn’t exactly say fudge). I slash the baguettes with blade. Went back outside and spray some more water inside the WFO to cool it down and place a cast iron skillet pan inside of the oven. Then I closed the door and the air temperature was reading at 600 F. I keep the door closed to let the heat saturated for 15 minutes. Got back inside the house the all six baguettes are screaming at me “Get me in the oven dude” all at the same time. Alan Scott is nowhere to be found for wisdom or word of encouragement. At this time, I decided the baguettes must go in before it started to sink down. I opened the door and loaded all 6 baguettes inside of the oven and pour a cup of water onto the cast iron skillet pan and closed the door. After 30 seconds, I opened the door and spray some water with the garden sprayer for 10 seconds. Then I closed the door. Out of nowhere, Coach Bela Karolyi is screaming at me “Tu, you can do it!” Limply like Kerri Strug, I just replied “Yes, coach!” After another 30 seconds, I opened the door for the last spray for 10 seconds.

Then I just time set the timer for 10 minutes so that I can check on the baguette. The recipe stated that the cooking time is for 20 minutes and rotate the bread at halfway. However, I didn’t put the high heat WFO into consideration and waited exactly 10 minutes. After 10 minutes, I opened and it was burnt! Then I can just hear Alan Scott said “You idiot!”

Even though it was burnt, I still eat it anyway. Despite the fact that it has a burnt taste to it, it was really good. I swear, if I only let it bake for 5 to 7 minutes, it would have been prefect! Of course, the ciabatta went in next and I bake the ciabatta at 550 F and cut the recommended baking time by 1/3. A lot better result! Although the ciabatta looks a lot better than the baguettes, the burnt baguettes taste so much better. The baguettes' crust was really good. I will battle it again. Bagel and Baguettes tommorow!
Tu,
Your journey reminds me quite a bit of my own. I built a high mass AS barrel vault oven, and I too have been caught in the "waiting for oven to cool" trap. I learned to try and keep good notes on temperature profiles and cooling curves. While that helped me a great deal, I still make mistakes. As you go on your starter will mature and you will learn what to expect from it as well.

Keep plugging away and you'll be baking great baguettes in not time.
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