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Old 02-19-2007, 02:35 PM
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Default Dough not al dente enough for German Rolls

(M) Sorry, James if this is slightly off topic since it isn't likely that many (other than Jim Wills) will bake rolls in a masonry oven but I'd like input from any experienced bakers who might be able to provide some input.

(M) CanuckJim knows that I've been trying for some time to make a true German Hard Roll known by several names; Broetchen, Schrippe, Semmeln, ..

(M) The rolls I've baked taste good but have too refined a texture. I'm looking for what in a roll would be called al dente in a pasta, i.e. something chewy and more like a baguette.

(M) I'll try to post 2 images from my latest attempt and hope that you can see that the crust is correctly crisp. You won't be able to tell much from the view of the interior:





The recipe I used follows:

INGREDIENTS:
  • 15 Oz. Bread Flour (About 12% protein)
  • 00.5 Oz. Gluten flour
  • .2 Oz yeast
  • .2 Oz sugar
  • .2 Oz salt
  • 8 Oz. water @ 100 F
  • 1 Oz. Unsalted Butter (Is the butter the problem?)
DIRECTIONS:
  1. 1- Add warm water, sugar, and yeast to bread maker machine container.
  2. 2- Add other dry ingredients.
  3. 3- Set bread machine to "dough" setting = #9
  4. 4- After 1 hour 30 Min. cover container with plastic wrap and place in refrigerator overnight.
  5. 5a - The next day sprinkle heavy cookie tray with Semolina flour and shape 10 dough rolls after weighing to about 80 g each.
  6. 5b - Preheat oven to 425 F.
  7. 6- Knead each roll firmly with thumbs, press Kaiser star former deeply into each dough ball and place star side DOWN on the tray.
  8. 7- After almost doubling in bulk in a warm place, turn each roll to show star, brush with egg white & water mixture.
  9. 8- Sprinkle rolls with poppy seeds &/or sesame seeds.
  10. 9- Just prior to placing tray in the oven, set control to Radiant Bake and spray the oven sides with about 4 squirts of water.
  11. 10- Bake for about 17 minutes. Spray, again after 3 minutes. Close oven door and don't peak.
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2007, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Dough not al dente enough for German Rolls

Marcel,

Sooo, what's the problem? Looks like you've got it pretty well knocked. The butter will definitely soften the crumb, though, and makes the dough classified as "enriched." Maybe try without next time and compare. I have absolutely zero experience with bread machines, so I'm no help there. The crust, I think, is exactly what you're looking for, nicht wahr?

Jim

Last edited by CanuckJim; 02-19-2007 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Unfinished
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Dough not al dente enough for German Rolls

(J) "Marcel,

(J) Sooo, what's the problem?

(M) Not the crust but the inside. The inside is not chewy and chewy is what I'd like.

(J) Looks like you've got it pretty well knocked. The butter will definitely soften the crumb, though, and makes the dough classified as "enriched." Maybe try without next time and compare.

(M) I'll leave out the butter and see if that puts some teeth into it.

(J) I have absolutely zero experience with bread machines, so I'm no help there.

(M) I know. You are a "real" baker and I'm not being sarcastic. But Jim, I only use the machine to mix the ingredients. For me the advantage is that a bread machine controls the temperature and the paddles never overheat the dough during kneading. Once the dough ball has formed I put it in the refrigerator for several hours or overnight. Then I treat it in a conventional hand kneading and forming way and bake it in the oven; kitchen or masonry. It's raining now so I'm using the inside range.

(J) The crust, I think, is exactly what you're looking for, nicht wahr?

(M) Doch, das ist schoen wahr aber, ... das innere; das fehlt

Jim

Ciao,

Marcel
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:42 AM
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Default Re: Dough not al dente enough for German Rolls

Marcel,

Should have been a bit more clear. The chewy texture you're after is produced by what's known as a lean dough, baguette dough for example. By adding things like butter, eggs, shortening and so on, the dough becomes enriched and you end up with a softer inside. Brioche, croissant, pain de mie, are all examples of this.

Leaving out the butter and cutting the sugar either in half or eliminating it entirely will produce a leaner dough with more tooth.

At 12 per cent protein, your flour is already pretty strong and should produce good gluten development. The other variable you could change is the addition of gluten flour, which is really a strengthening agent which you might not need. Personally, I'd add 1 tsp of barley malt powder to this formula instead. The reason is that there is such a thing as dough that is too strong.

Seems to me that using your bread machine in this way should work just fine. I don't see any problems there.

You're very close, just fine tuning. You'll get there.

Jim
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: Dough not al dente enough for German Rolls

Marcel,

AND, two more things. You might try raising your oven temp to 450 or even higher. This will lead to a faster bake but more spring and a drier interior. Did you take the temp of the rolls? A lean dough should read at least 205 F, while an enriched dough at least 190 F. It might be that you didn't get a long enough or hot enough bake, so the interior would remain moist and somewhat dense.

Jim
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:24 AM
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Question Thanks, Guru Jim. I'm "on a roll".

(M) It's great, Jim, to have your experience to lean on. I'll follow all of your suggestions.

(M) One more question, .... (well, close to just 1 more) would be if I may have let the rolls rise too much? ___ They were surprisingly voluminous considering that each started at about 2.5 Oz. Would I be "Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul" if I didn't let the rolls rise enough, just to get more "tooth"? ___

(M) This question turns out to have some general appeal as it may also apply to limiting the rise of pizza dough? __

Chow,

Marcel
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Old 02-20-2007, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Dough not al dente enough for German Rolls

Marcel,

Your pictures of the interior don't really suggest over-risen dough, but it is possible. Retardation adds a lot to the flavour of bread or pizza dough, but there can be too much of a good thing. Literally, retardation slows down the action of the yeast and allows the enzymes and lactobacilli to break out sugars in the wheat for better flavour. However, it is possible that, although slowed down, the yeast can run out of food over too much time.

But, the round, taut shape of the outside of your rolls does not suggest this. If it did happen, the rolls would be flat on top, not dome shaped.

Ideally, your fridge should be at about 35-40 F, and you really don't need much more than 8-10 hours of retardation. I'm having a "zone" problem right now in one of my fridges where the temp actually gets too low. This can adversely affect wild yeast doughs, but not necessarily commercial yeast concoctions.

There are two very definite schools of thought on baking retarded doughs. One, Nancy Silverton, suggests the bread should be removed from the fridge to warm up (covered) to 58 F before baking. This can be extremely tricky with wood-fired ovens. The other, Hamelman, suggests going straight from the fridge to the oven. I try to fall somewhere in the middle, though it's not always feasible.

My suspicion remains that you need a very lean dough for what you're after. Also, you will probably have to increase slightly the hydration percentage in your foumula to make up for the removal of the butter. Higher hydration will give you a bit more open structure and more bite.

Ah, the variety of variables that need to be verified, verily.

Jim
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