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-   -   Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration (http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/perth-42-pompeii-dome-flat-entry-17441.html)

jab49 03-03-2012 02:46 PM

Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
3 Attachment(s)
I'm about to start the first course with high heat mortar. Before I do that, am trying to visualise how the dome will integrate with the oven opening. I'm going to use angle iron for a rectangular, 20" entry - I'm just not skilled enough to do an arch, unfortunately.
See attached pictures. Questions are:
1. The two (three in the last picture) vertical half bricks these will eventually be 4 to make the height of the opening - should I mortar them like normal bricks? I'm thinking it would make them stronger, and also lift them sufficiently to allow the next chain on the dome to sit on top of the angle iron.
2. Is the general arrangement as shown for the oven opening acceptable? I've left a reveal for the door. Trying to minimise cuts, keep it simple. It won't look as nice as most I've seen, but is it going to work?

Kind regards
John in Willetton, Perth, Australia
Build progress: Wood Fired Oven - Perth - Forno Bravo Design

brickie in oz 03-03-2012 03:42 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jab49 (Post 128200)
to allow the next chain on the dome to sit on top of the angle iron.

You need to keep angle iron out of the equation, it will distort and rust. :(

azatty 03-03-2012 04:19 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
If you can build a dome, you can build an arch. You can build an arch form from plywood and lay the bricks on it as you go.

I bulit most of my arch without a form. The trick is to not rush building the arch if you don't have a form. Lay a course on each side and let it set before going on to the next course. The mortar will hold the bricks in place mostly by itself, an you only need a stick or brace (indispensible tool works well) to keep it in place. I used bricks and brick slivers to brace mine while it was going up.

C5dad 03-03-2012 06:50 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
John,

I too struggled to visualize the arch tie in and asked many questions. No problem there, that is why we are all here with different experiences, etc.

I found that my mud set really quick because I mix "hot" batches with low water. Just the nature of where and how I work - time is of the essence during a plant turn around. None the less, I would highly recommend that you look at similar builds and email the guilty parties - after all, we are all of the Forno Bravo Familia and will stick together!\

Just remember, more joints, more potential problems. However, if you look at some of the old pictures from the trips to Italy, you will see all sorts of "refractory" mudded together. Whatever works for you will work, just go light on the mortar is all most will recommend.

Best of luck!

Chris

jab49 03-04-2012 03:48 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by azatty (Post 128208)
If you can build a dome, you can build an arch. You can build an arch form from plywood and lay the bricks on it as you go.

I bulit most of my arch without a form. The trick is to not rush building the arch if you don't have a form. Lay a course on each side and let it set before going on to the next course. The mortar will hold the bricks in place mostly by itself, an you only need a stick or brace (indispensible tool works well) to keep it in place. I used bricks and brick slivers to brace mine while it was going up.

Thanks Azatty and co - I'll give it a go! I will make a form, go slow and steady as you suggest. Just some process questions then:
Do you recommend that I taper the bricks for the arch?
Did you get the arch built well ahead of the dome (ie, did you lay, say, 3 chains of the dome, then built the arch, then returned to the dome?

Thanks
JT

Laku 03-05-2012 12:18 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
Tapering the bricks will make it stronger.

Cheesesteak 03-05-2012 12:55 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
I built my arch first (on top of the floor) and then built my dome and just cut each brick where it intercepted the dome. If you place the arch in the correct spot - the end bricks in each chain will "wrap" the arch (each end brick of mine was cut in a "v" shape).

The arch was quite simple and each chain finished itself. No calculations, no compound miter cuts for me. It's certainly not as pretty as some of the arch / dome transitions you'll see - but it works just fine and I don't have any cracks or mortar issues to speak of.

Here are a couple of pictures . . .

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5027/5...b5c6ba8d_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3234/5...18ae827e_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3102/5...fca41d4a_z.jpg

Do what you're comfortable with - but I'd really suggest building the arch and not using angle iron. There's a ton of information here - and folks have built these things so many different ways and most, if not all, work just fine.

Amac 03-05-2012 01:40 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
If you want a semicircular (or near) arch, it will tie into the dome nicely - look at Giannifocaccias, KarangiDudes, Aceves and Sharkeys. I based mine on theirs because the dome walls attach with a straight cut and also the arch inside has the same convex shape as the dome inside (no ash traps)
I used a variation where I was able to cut all the arch bricks identically in advance and built the arch first. I too thought I would not have the skills to do it but it worked out really well, and much easier than I expected.
see post #36
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/8/39...i-17334-4.html
I hated the idea of angle iron also - but I am sure there are lots of working ovens with angle iron framed entries
Good luck
Amac

jab49 03-09-2012 06:16 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesesteak (Post 128321)
I built my arch first (on top of the floor) and then built my dome and just cut each brick where it intercepted the dome. If you place the arch in the correct spot - the end bricks in each chain will "wrap" the arch (each end brick of mine was cut in a "v" shape).

The arch was quite simple and each chain finished itself. No calculations, no compound miter cuts for me. It's certainly not as pretty as some of the arch / dome transitions you'll see - but it works just fine and I don't have any cracks or mortar issues to speak of.

Here are a couple of pictures . . .

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5027/5...b5c6ba8d_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3234/5...18ae827e_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3102/5...fca41d4a_z.jpg

Do what you're comfortable with - but I'd really suggest building the arch and not using angle iron. There's a ton of information here - and folks have built these things so many different ways and most, if not all, work just fine.

Hi Cheesesteak

I like what you have done (I like the other approaches too, but yours looks simpler and easier to me). Can I check a couple of things with you?
1. Confirm that you have just used standard half bricks on the dome (no tapering)?
2. When you said that "each chain finished itself", what do you mean?
3. Any chance you can let me know the dimensions of your arch span, height and dome diameter?
4. The top of your arch - looks like two bricks set the other way in orientation - correct?
5. Did you draw out this arch on paper first or just lay it out in trial?

Thanks in anticipation!

Regards

John

Cheesesteak 03-11-2012 12:33 PM

Re: Perth 42" Pompeii - dome to flat entry integration
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jab49 (Post 128505)
Hi Cheesesteak

I like what you have done (I like the other approaches too, but yours looks simpler and easier to me). Can I check a couple of things with you?
1. Confirm that you have just used standard half bricks on the dome (no tapering)?
2. When you said that "each chain finished itself", what do you mean?
3. Any chance you can let me know the dimensions of your arch span, height and dome diameter?
4. The top of your arch - looks like two bricks set the other way in orientation - correct?
5. Did you draw out this arch on paper first or just lay it out in trial?

Thanks in anticipation!

Regards

John

John -

1. On the arch - as you can see - I tapered every other brick or so. I did taper some when I moved up the dome. Just the sides - not top and bottom.

2. What I mean is that I started each chain in the back of the dome and worked towards the arch. They "finished themselves" because I was just left with a gap to fill. I cut a "v" in the last brick and they wrapped around the arch. It was quite a bit easier than I thought it would be.

3. Here's how I located the arch: http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/l...tml#post111827
Again, this was much easier than I thought it would be. I just intersected a 12" radius arch into a 42" dome. The numbers don't lie . . . I drew a line 4 1/2" back from the outside radius of the dome and built my arch on that line. Everything else fell in to place.

4. Yes.

5. All I did was draw it out in the link in my #3 above.


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