#11  
Old 09-11-2005, 06:55 PM
paulages's Avatar
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the multi-vaned styrofoam board method works great, and i would reccomend it. now worries about gravity until you get that last piece in.
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  #12  
Old 09-13-2005, 01:00 PM
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Default Styrofoam is a good ideia!

Hi, friends
How my pictures showed in older threads, the multi polystirene vanes (styrofoam) not only made a great work as were inexpensive and truly easy to work with.
The 1” Styrofoam board is sufficiently strong to let you to hammer the bricks to be adjusted in place.
BTW, the use of a alluminium sheet when the brick rows overcome the half height of the dome let you to do the mortar work without be worried about cleaning the inner dome.
The mortar that pass over the brick spaces is pressed against the alluminium sheet and form a thin mortar pellicle that is not a problem to worry with. Mine is there since the first fire (20-30 pizza parties and going).
And if you enjoy VPN, you could rework your Styrofoam model to a lower ellipse too!
Luis
Attached Thumbnails
Collapsible form-domedoordetail.jpg   Collapsible form-closingdome.jpg   Collapsible form-domeinterno.jpg   Collapsible form-domeinterno1.jpg   Collapsible form-domeinterno2.jpg  

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  #13  
Old 09-13-2005, 02:12 PM
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Question Basalt mini columns as a horizontal hide for angle iron

#13

(M) Luis, your work looks terrific. I'm at the point of laying the cooking floor. I will soon be ready to start the actual dome.

Fred di Napoli wrote in a previous post:

(F) "

I was able to find a neat tool called the "Angle-iZe! Axed Master ' at Home Depot for about $10. It comes with a CD that has programs for determing the dimensions of bricks for various types of arches."

(M) I have ordered such a template and will pick it up on Friday.
================================================== ========
(M) QUESTION: Luis, it appears that you used angle iron to support your arch entry bricks. Is that correct? ____

(M) If it is correct, then did you also put a piece of wood in a horizontal position to hide that angle iron? ___

(M) In English we call such a horizontal support a "Lintel" ("header" if in house construction). I doubt if many on this forum have seen mini Basalt rock columns but they are unusual in that they are of natural rock, very hard, and can be as long as 22".

(M) I am considering using the angle iron but adding the Baslat column as a decorative "lintel" in front.

ANSWER ____ Is this a reasonable consideration? ____

(M) Below should follow a picture of some Basalt Lintels from Turkey:

================================================== =========

(M) Luis, Paul wrote that the multi-vane approach worked well for him. You seem to agree. I will most probably use that system as well. Next follows a question about a metal "Lazy Susan". You may not know that expression in your country. It describes a plate the rotates on ball bearings.

(M) Can you answer the next question for me, Luis?



#12

(M) A few weeks ago I posted the following question but got no input regarding the "Lazy Susan""


"(M) If I use a "Lazy Susan" (a plate that rotates on a bearing ring) and choose one that will pass through the neck-entry of the "igloo", would it be significantly easier to rotate the vanes whether I use 1, 4 or 16 vanes ? _____"

(M) Now that I've read some more posts I am begining to doubt that I could usefully employ the 12" diameter "Lazy Susan" for my 42" dome (except perhaps if I used only one (1) vane) and I'm reluctant to do that despite the success of one builder with that approach.

(M) Am I wasting my time even considering a Lazy Susan for turning the vanes during the construction of the dome? ___

Thanks,

Ciao,

Marcel

[img]images/buttons/edit.gif[/img]
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  #14  
Old 09-14-2005, 07:49 AM
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Marcel:

Thanks, my gluttony digestive apparel deserve it …lol
Yes, I used a lintel to support the entry bricks.
No, it is not hidden. When the chimney area was constructed, the arch of this entry partially cover the lintel, still it is apparent.
I am not an expert in this matter, but I feel that if I could make the oven again I could think to build an arch as dome entry (just because two arches seem more “elegant” for my vision).
As you are thinking to add a Basalt column as a decoration but use an structural iron lintel I am not seeing problems. Just worried as this could affect the chimney and landing area.
I decided to use the Styrofoam forms after a lot of searches of the possible methods to make a dome. I love it. Is an easy work and is plenty of opportunities to quickly change your dome shape at any time during the dome building. And the ellipse only needs a piece of chord, a pen and a cutter to be finished.
And you could use more/less than 16 vanes, just adjust to your needs. You could, even, easily construct a solid body with bonded vanes!
Then, why you are going to rotate this “equipment”
I am suspect to said, but go with it and forget your “friend” Susan …lol
Have a nice work !

Luis
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  #15  
Old 09-14-2005, 09:34 AM
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Default Solid body with bonded veins.

#15

(M) Thank you Luis for your detailed reply to my questions.

(M) Although this entry is to thank Luis, anyone who feels inclined to comment I hope will contribute. ________

<snip>

Luis wrote:

(L) As you are thinking to add a Basalt column as a decoration but use an structural iron lintel I am not seeing problems. Just worried as this could affect the chimney and landing area.

(M) Do you mean the support for the chimney &/or landing areas may be weakened?

<snip>

(L) And you could use more/less than 16 vanes, just adjust to your needs. You could, even, easily construct a solid body with bonded vanes!

(M) I suspect that a solid body may be a bit difficult to break out after completion? ___

(L) Then, why you are going to rotate this “equipment”

(M) I had hoped to use only 4 vanes so that I could see my progress. But 4 vanes would not support the bricks during construction *unless* the vanes could be moved. That was the idea of "going to rotate this “equipment”". I had the hope that the bricks would not stick to the styrofoam but I imagine that is an unrealisitc hope? _____

(L) I am suspect to said, but go with it and forget your “friend” Susan …lol
Have a nice work !

(M) Luis, I may try it anyway. If the vanes stick, then I will stop trying to turn them. I only need to be aware that the added height of the "Lazy Susan" will change the height of my dome. But from what I've read by James and Jim, a higher dome (up to a point) will increase strength.

Ciao,

Marcel

Luis [img]images/buttons/quote.gif[/img]
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  #16  
Old 09-14-2005, 09:55 PM
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Default Rotating the vanes

Hi Marcel,

I built my oven using two vanes which I rotated to get the angle of the lower bricks correct. Only near the top did I actually use them to support the bricks.

I did not try to, but I do not think that you will be able to rotate the vanes at all if once you use them to support the bricks, regardless of whether you use the Lazy Suzan or not. The bricks resting on the styrofoam creates quite a bit of friction which, in my opinion, makes rotating difficult, if not impossible.

I think that If you want to use the vanes to support your bricks at the lower levels, you will have to leave the vanes static and not rotate them. For this a larger number of vanes will work better.

Hope this helps.

Johann
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  #17  
Old 09-15-2005, 05:02 AM
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Default Lazy Susan is "no simpler"

#18

(M) Thank you, Johann, for your input. It supports my intuition and suggests my impulse to use a Lazy Susan would indeed be an exercise in futility.

(M) Johann, I would like to see images of your work. Do you have postings on this forum? ________

Ciao,

Marcel
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  #18  
Old 09-15-2005, 10:23 AM
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Marcel:

I learn too much from this group and I borrow many of the ideas and solutions by others used/developed.
I am so grateful to all that I am the person that needs to said thanks.
Regarding your first question I mean that you have the dome built with refractory brick and mortar with similar characteristics. The entry has an iron lintel that has a different temperature/dilatation coefficient, as has the Basalt column. The chimney area is normally made with common bricks which have another temperature coefficient. And this three different “systems” need to be concatenated just at the entry level (when the fire is growing, you have nearly the highest temperatures there).
In using only a lintel, this is rested over the two “soldier” columns and opened at the sides. The row of refractory bricks over it is self supported (horizontally) since is a sphere/dome row, allowing some movements of the lintel.
You need to think how will be your Basalt arrangement with and without lintel to have minimum problems with dilatation.

Styrofoam. You could said to your dog that his bone is hidden in the center of the dome, he will take count of the work! Lol. May be he will come a pizza fanatic too!!!

I am with Johann comments. When I work with the 16 vanes model, I used a hammer to make the necessary adjusts to complete the rows. By friction/contact will be hard to rotate the vanes after two or three rows (when the bricks are arranged in angle).

Higher dome increments strength until the perfect sphere (semi-sphere) that is when the forces are equally distributed.
Thinking in construct a new dome, it is possible that I would to do it lower than I have now (today approximately 40” diameter 18” high). More VPN style. Even is ok like it is.

Luis
Attached Thumbnails
Collapsible form-domedoordetail.jpg   Collapsible form-domecomplete.jpg   Collapsible form-firstfire.jpg   Collapsible form-launchinarea-polystyrene-model-2.jpg   Collapsible form-lintelfluelowerview.jpg  

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  #19  
Old 09-15-2005, 04:41 PM
Marcel's Avatar
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Default "concatenated" is a Sunday word ;-)

#19

(M) Dear Luis,

It is always a special pleasure to read the posts of this forum's members from other countries. They have such special, charming ways of phrasing things yet they almost always get their messages across as intended. You have outdone yourself though with the use of "concatenated". That is a word I needed to look up!

(M) I am not intent on using the Basalt Lintel "Come Hell or High Water". But I thought it might be a possibility. You seem to have some concern about it's coefficient of expansion in relation to other dissimilar materials.

(M) You are not expected to reply to this post, though your input, or that of other members, is always welcome. But I probably have not thought this through very carefully so I should try to clarify: The Basalt column would be in conjunction with a steel angle iron. It is strictly an aesthetic device, though because of it's strength it could also be structural. I simply wanted to hide the angle iron in an attractive way. But if you &/or others tell me that this is too problematic, I will give it up along with my girl friend, Lazy Susan. ;-)
Besides, I would like to try an arch, especially if I can find, or make, rounded edge bricks! Then there would be no iron, and no Basalt lintel.

(M) Luis, you wrote, in part:

(L) "Styrofoam. You could said to your dog that his bone is hidden in the center of the dome, he will take count of the work! Lol. May be he will come a pizza fanatic too!!!"

(M) I am sorry to say that I missed your joke :-( Perhaps you were thinking that I like hot dogs?

(M) But your suggestion of hiding something in the dome brought to mind a story that a friend relayed to me this morning about "Il Duomo" , a famous dome in Italy:

(M) The story goes that the city fathers were wondering how to support this huge dome during construction. One suggestion was that they pack tons of raw sand as a support. The added element was to be pieces of gold! The pieces of gold were to provide an incentive for the villagers to empty the sand while looking for the gold. They gave up on the idea. I would, too. If you've poured sand at the beach you know it forms a ^ not a hemisphere.

(M) What is "VPN style"?

Ciao,

Marcel
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  #20  
Old 09-15-2005, 05:19 PM
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i had a french roomate for a while, and he was constantly using english words i had bever heard of. same with an old german friend. i read quite a bit, too. says something about our education system maybe? ...or maybe just that concatenated is just too hard to say.

marcel,
if you are thinking of using a lintel, why use angle iron at all? wouldn't a lintel do the job structurally by itself? by the way, i believe my brick supplier here in portland has solid refractory lintels. wouldn't look as nice as basalt, and you wouldn't be able to say that your oven contains a piece of the cascade range, but it sure would work nicely.
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