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  #41  
Old 02-11-2013, 05:39 AM
david s's Avatar
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Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Usually you only need a double thickness insulated chimney if you are going through a roof. Is that so or did you have another reason for wanting it double? It does double the cost and is not worth the expense unless you have a reason IMO. If the expense of stainless is an issue you could consider brick or stone.
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  #42  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:51 AM
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Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

looks great. Glad you got the dome in place. Sounds like you used the gray matter to find a way of to solve your move. Nice looking set up.
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  #43  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:31 PM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 620
Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

First reason-maintain flue temp for good draft. (Something from rocket-stove reading), own experience with soot/creasote build up issues, assumed causes of oven smoking at start-up, die-down cycle.

2) Double-wall chimney parts- listed in brochure: (about) $150- starter ring, needs to be adapted to my build, starter collar (same), 6"-thru 4' chimney sections $150-$300, roof flashing, $150 (about), storm flashing, ($30), termination cap ($150-), straps or other supports...+,+ So double-wall is price issue.

3) Have not sorted out if "igloo" finish or "enclosing structure", both have advantages. If enclosure, would want double-wall for roof penetration. Want to be covered either way--then can proceed with insulating dome. Right now a roadblock!

4) Brick or stone- The seismic region where I live, makes masonry chimneys any height a problem. I asked about "simple flues" the clay type??--simply not available. Also, thinking about working with bricks...puts me in a panic mode...no experience...yikes...something to screw up!!!

5) Regular stainless stove pipe is available every home center or hardware store. Used for all burning devices- kerosene, fuel oil, sheetmetal wood burning box stoves. (But soot build-up an issue unless you can keep them hot!)

Now that brings us full circle back to (1)!

Here is an off the wall question. In the past, I have looked for "masonry cement" here. No one knows what I am talking about? I explain it is used to make mortar more of an adhesive and makes spreading easier. The answer I always get is "we don't know" or they point me to a little package of powder sold in baggie sizes. They say the masons add to portland to do what I am saying! Anyone know what that little baggie might contain??

Please "no magic dust!" - that is what they say!

Same goes for "lime"- no one knows what it is! But all types of plasters are available! It should be a "stand alone" product and not sold only as a a specialty item. Back -"North" always had it in a bucket in the outhouse at the lake! Had a dipper to toss the stuff over your "job" to keep the flies from gathering!
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  #44  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:51 PM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 620
Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Russell

My sheetmetal guy came over later yesterday. He needed something ordered from Italy. He is really into cycling and fashion. There is a new line from Cannondale --their 2013 jerseys etc that he wanted.. Anyway.

I was explaining to him "the beautiful work by the architect in Chicago". I mentioned "doh" the Japanese term for copper and - "diamondo" as the shape of the roofing. He immediately started talking how to do it. One thing interesting he said was: You do not need to divide your dome into equal segments--Just lines from pole to equator--spacing not important (only if you want uniformity to piece sizes). If you vary the spacing, you get a more random design. Just need to follow these lines. He said that metal thickness is usually .35mm and up. (.35, .4, .5, .6) all in mm thickness. Thickness over .6 would not be a sheetmetal person's job---changes to a fabricator.

I would imagine you would have to follow course lines though...But have not thought of it enough to form an opinion.

I thought you might be interested. He also mentioned the pattern name for that roofing design. But I forgot. I can talk to him again when he comes to pick up his jersey in a few days. He usually asks me to order because I can read the english homepage and he does not use credit cards or paypal. Tough to order on line without them.
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  #45  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:16 PM
Laurentius's Avatar
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Japan
Posts: 847
Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikku View Post
First reason-maintain flue temp for good draft. (Something from rocket-stove reading), own experience with soot/creasote build up issues, assumed causes of oven smoking at start-up, die-down cycle.

2) Double-wall chimney parts- listed in brochure: (about) $150- starter ring, needs to be adapted to my build, starter collar (same), 6"-thru 4' chimney sections $150-$300, roof flashing, $150 (about), storm flashing, ($30), termination cap ($150-), straps or other supports...+,+ So double-wall is price issue.

3) Have not sorted out if "igloo" finish or "enclosing structure", both have advantages. If enclosure, would want double-wall for roof penetration. Want to be covered either way--then can proceed with insulating dome. Right now a roadblock!

4) Brick or stone- The seismic region where I live, makes masonry chimneys any height a problem. I asked about "simple flues" the clay type??--simply not available. Also, thinking about working with bricks...puts me in a panic mode...no experience...yikes...something to screw up!!!

5) Regular stainless stove pipe is available every home center or hardware store. Used for all burning devices- kerosene, fuel oil, sheetmetal wood burning box stoves. (But soot build-up an issue unless you can keep them hot!)

Now that brings us full circle back to (1)!

Here is an off the wall question. In the past, I have looked for "masonry cement" here. No one knows what I am talking about? I explain it is used to make mortar more of an adhesive and makes spreading easier. The answer I always get is "we don't know" or they point me to a little package of powder sold in baggie sizes. They say the masons add to portland to do what I am saying! Anyone know what that little baggie might contain??

Please "no magic dust!" - that is what they say!

Same goes for "lime"- no one knows what it is! But all types of plasters are available! It should be a "stand alone" product and not sold only as a a specialty item. Back -"North" always had it in a bucket in the outhouse at the lake! Had a dipper to toss the stuff over your "job" to keep the flies from gathering!
Mikku-sama,

I think your problem is that you're not asking the right questions. Everything that need, I had to get for my oven. The person that help me build my oven does not speak English and I do not speak Japanese, but he flip out his iphone and I spelled the word such as "lime" and his translator comes up with a few meaning and we discussed them and problems solved. Do you have a good Eigo-Nihongo-Nihongo-Eigo Dictionary? If not get one to minimize your problems, otherwise you come out as a Baka-gaijin.
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  #46  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:07 PM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
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Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Laurentius,
Thank you for your input as always!

The guy you used has to be a lot brighter than the "local distributor of masonry stuff here" or you have to be a lot better at Eigo-Nihongo than you claim.

The translation for lime- is: a citrus fruit, an agriculture additive, white powdery substance, component of drywall. Nothing to indicate qualities of water proofing, texture altering, adhesive qualities, component in masonry construction. So I do come across as "baka gaijin!" (crazy or stupid foreigner for those w/o Japan vocabulary)--sometimes worse if combined with other words!

Maybe your Japanese assistant knows what is in the "little plastic baggie" that the masons use! Probably not lime, but something with similar characteristics? Could you ask him--next time you see him? He had to use something for preparing the mortar for your firebrick work. Maybe he can give a "kanji", all I get is some kind of "sekkai" and that is recognized as the "lime for changing Ph in soil.

This is "all for information purposes only" - Passed the need to know phase.
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  #47  
Old 02-13-2013, 01:28 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 620
Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Out with the new and in with the old and stronger!

My fabricator delivered his contribution to my build--old wheels to carry the oven load! Photo: 122kg max/wheel vs 460kg max/wheel. This should make moving this inside the garage easier & safer. He also brought news on the chimney--I am looking at around Y9500 for my home-fabricated stainless chimney! Around $100 US! Have to go with it--in budget!

Decided on oven- It is going to be an igloo! No fancy, bells and whistles. Perlite insulation 4" thickness-scratch coat of some type of home brew plaster, finish coat of "shikkui", off the shelf "plaster coat" white colored--used a lot on old homes, castles, fences--I think that it has hemp fiber or some other natural fiber to add crack resistance! It is supposed to be water-resistant if not proof?

Also started insulating and had a fun day working in the mud. The fancy angles and joints mean nothing once covered!

Maybe this oven will see fire by the end of the month!


Structural Slab for new WFO-img_2588a.jpg

Structural Slab for new WFO-img_2574a.jpg

Structural Slab for new WFO-img_2582a.jpg

Structural Slab for new WFO-img_2590a.jpg

Structural Slab for new WFO-img_2593a.jpg
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  #48  
Old 02-13-2013, 01:44 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 620
Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Pericrete technique: Fairly dry pericrete mixture, use a rubber float to hold finish surface-other hand place loose mix in place, press a little and hold. Keep working in rings. When high enough or when the surface feels firm, run the float across the surface to shave high spots--also can fill in lows.

I used a small plastering trowel to clean up the bottom edge and lightly touch up the surface. It seemed a little harder--did not want too smooth.

Only used my hand width as gauge of insulation thickness.. If someone wants it done better, they can do it themselves! This is close enough for me. Tomorrow will finish covering the dome and bring insulation to base of chimney vent--no chimney for 3-5 days!

Everytime I play with new materials, I am surprised with the shape hidden in the pile of materials. Work it a little and fun things pop out. This same thing happens with pieces of wood. Cut, sand, plane, route da, da, da and a house pops out, or a chair, boat, ... really never know what is hiding in the pile of material until you start working with it! That is why I like working with my hands!
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  #49  
Old 02-13-2013, 03:14 AM
david s's Avatar
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,739
Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Good job Mikku,
I hope you kept the mixture lean as cement reduces the insulation value enormously.it also takes LOTS of water, about one third of the volume of perlite approx. and that water needs to be removed before you do the stucco layer.
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  #50  
Old 02-13-2013, 03:35 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
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Default Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

10:1, Didn't think I had the ability to try larger ratios.
I have the dome covered in plastic for the night, hopefully for the small amount of portland to---set??

I saw a post somewhere about using a high wattage quartz lamp to bring up temps inside the oven to drive out water.

Any other suggestions for a drying out? Garage temperatures 24/7 @ 19degC.
I can change that by simply turning up the thermostat, but that is going to cost more in kerosene to run the boiler for floor heating.

Thank you for the information and watching this thread!
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