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  #251  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

Did you get your plasticizer from Ace?
Edit: Reread post. I think that you meant that the concrete that you poured without the plasticizer was easier to work?
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Last edited by Gulf; 10-01-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  #252  
Old 10-02-2012, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

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Originally Posted by Gulf View Post
Maybe someone else can shine some light on the fortifier/plasticizer subject.
Its just use dish washing detergent, it breaks the surface tension so all sand/cement/gravel particles are evenly coated in water, you use less water per mix, I used it for years.
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Last edited by brickie in oz; 10-02-2012 at 01:45 AM.
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  #253  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

Super-plasticiser allows you to add the correct amount of water to the mix. Typically a ratio of around 0.5 of water to cement by weight is about right. If you mix it up you end up with a brew that seems too dry and won't flow. Adding water to achieve this results in a weaker product. Adding some super plasticiser thins the mix out and makes it flow. Too much however creates separation (heavy aggregate falling to the bottom). There are many specific chemicals to achieve this characteristic and the products have been designed accordingly. Be wary of using dish washing liquid, which has been designed to wash dishes. Although it works it probably contains phosphates and other chemicals which may have adverse effects on the concrete product either short or long term.
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  #254  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

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Be wary of using dish washing liquid, which has been designed to wash dishes. Although it works it probably contains phosphates and other chemicals which may have adverse effects on the concrete product either short or long term.
Ive asked everyone who quotes this to provide the written scientific evidence, after 30 years Ive never seen it?

Hear say wont do.
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  #255  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

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Ive asked everyone who quotes this to provide the written scientific evidence, after 30 years Ive never seen it?

Hear say wont do.
I'm not an industrial chemist, but if you check the chemicals these products contain and you usually have to research their data sheets, you find that the chemicals vary considerably and all have ridiculously complex names. So I defer to those applied chemical engineers and trust that the product they've designed for the application is suitable.
If there are any applied chemists on the forum, maybe they might chime in.
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  #256  
Old 10-02-2012, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

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Originally Posted by david s View Post
Be wary of using dish washing liquid, which has been designed to wash dishes. Although it works it probably contains phosphates and other chemicals which may have adverse effects on the concrete product either short or long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david s View Post
I'm not an industrial chemist, but if you check the chemicals these products contain and you usually have to research their data sheets, you find that the chemicals vary considerably and all have ridiculously complex names. So I defer to those applied chemical engineers and trust that the product they've designed for the application is suitable.
If there are any applied chemists on the forum, maybe they might chime in.
So you dont know if it is unsuitable, so why suggest it is?
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  #257  
Old 10-02-2012, 02:17 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

Thirty years ago I built a house and added another room every holidays. I did a short bricklaying course and the bloke running it suggested adding a squirt of dish washing liquid to the mortar mix to help make it more "sticky". I stuck by this regime and found it did the job. The last room I added and as I was busy doing other stuff, I got a professional bricklayer to do the job. He advised me against using dish washing liquid as he had been taught in his apprenticeship that only the proprietary product, designed specifically for the purpose, should be used. As I previously stated I'm no applied chemist so I take the advice of those who've developed the specific product. It's not that expensive and it's better to be safe than sorry in my book.
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  #258  
Old 10-02-2012, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

So still no scientific evidence? Just some bloke said 30 years ago?
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  #259  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:33 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

Plasticisers are typically lignosulphonates.
Anionic dishwashing detergents are typically alkylbenzenesulphonates.
The basic unit of a lignosulphonate is really quite similar to an alkylbenzenesuklphonate.
The big difference is that the lignosulphonate is polymerised - lots of the basic units joined together to form long chain polymers.
I think the lignosulphonate plasticiser would work better than detergent.
However I think that the most important bit is the sulphonate functional group, and I therefore think detergent will work adequately.
Look for an unscented, untinted detergent that doesn't contain phosphates (lots of these on the Oz market since we started worrying about water security and re-using grey water) and has "anionic surfactants" as the main ingredient.
The only thing I'm not confident about is the amount. I suggest the minimum that does the job.
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  #260  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: Starting new 36" build

P.S. right now my wife has Palmolive dishwashing detergent in the cupboard - the label says it is a micture of anionic and non-ionic surfactants. Non ionic surfactants often are glycosides. i.e the molecule contains a sugar.
I'd think twice about using it as a plasticiser.
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