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  #41  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:53 AM
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Location: Japan
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

O.K. In your area you are a respected builder.
What I keep saying is! The post and the concrete surrounding the post will pop out of the ground together if the base below is not attached.

If you dig a hole...
Pour a small base...
later insert a sonotube form and fill with concrete
this concrete sonotube base will pop out of the ground!

If you stick some rebar in the hole when you pour the base--some with L's bent, then place the sonotube form over the rebar and fill the form with concrete... once this sets properly--frost will not pop this out "if the lower base is below frost line!

That is the only point I am making.

I found it very easy--in years past when wanting to do small additions utilizing sonotube bases, to first form (as an example) a 30"x30" x12" box; made from treated lumber-put a piece of treated plywood on top to make a cover; cut a hole in the cover to insert a 12" sonotube. Now use a backhoe---dig holes where support is required--set these combined forms into the holes in proper alignment, insert rebar with 12" L's bent into the sonotube ( maybe 3, 4, 5) then backfill the holes and pour concrete. What you end up is a monolithic pour, the base and sonotube being one casting. If the base is below frost line, it is virtually impossible for frost to work on these posts. Further, you leave the sonotube in the ground--cardboard cut off somewhere below GL and call it good. Some areas do not like formwork left in the ground--but ground contact treated should be OK for any inspector worth his salt!

wakarimushitaka (meaning) do you follow what I am saying?

As far as the rockland county WFO builder is concerned, I said--dig one big hole, pour a slab with rebar sticking out where support is required, later place sonotube forms over these rebar at proper location; backfill and pour. A great never worry about base for a WFO.

Now I'm getting a little tired, 4 hours and have to kick it in the ass again at work! good luck on your build rockland county NY mate!
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  #42  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

............

Last edited by Faith In Virginia; 05-21-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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  #43  
Old 05-20-2013, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

...........

Last edited by Faith In Virginia; 05-21-2013 at 05:11 PM.
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  #44  
Old 05-20-2013, 10:11 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

I'm going to bed---but please tell me "why" there are minimum foundation depths for frost footings? What is the thinking that produced these codes?

Do a little research on how frost acts in the ground or better how ice forms in the ground. There are a lot of foundation designs that do not place footers below frost line--example: in perma frost areas. Also check into the use of insulation materials to disrupt the pattern of frost formation. I doubt any of this is in any license testing.. usually the "why" is missing.

I don't know how this is going to help Mr. Rockland county--but it gets the juices flowing anyway! If he paints his posts black, keeps the oven in a nice sunny place, keeps a decent ground cover during winter months---probably won't get much frost.. Better yet, use the oven during winter months and throw a tarp over it when not in use---ground will probably never freeze!
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  #45  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

I always thought that mountains were formed by the movement of tectonic plates --a related way would be by volcanic action. The wearing down of mountains caused by water that freezes in cracks in stone, the ice expanding, thus splitting the rock, the rain comes and washes the pieces away, other geographic features caused by the movement of huge sheets of ice---originally as they moved across continents, the shear weight of the ice and its forward movement gouged out huge features like the great lakes, receeding actions left deposits of stone and gravel otherwise not local to a particular area.

Anyway, ready to kick off another beautiful day...only have to worry about earthquakes or some flying heavenly object that has not yet been spotted to zoom out of the sky and wipe us out....or a ranting idiot in NKOREA who wants to nuke us! Hope ya all have a nice one!
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  #46  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Mikku: I do worry about frost heave, but a few things:

1. Your recommendation that I dig a 5 foot square hole and then pour a base slab three feet below grade is just crazy mad-talk overkill, and leads me to believe that some of your other advice may be overkill too.

2. Why would frost not heave a sonotube up like you say it would a wood girder? Wouldn't there perhaps be less friction on wood than on concrete?

3. Nothing is going to come anywhere close to "popping out of the ground" around here, even if concreted in ABOVE frost level.

4. Many people here have built their ovens on slabs ON grade. That's actually the recommendation. In another thread, I questioned if that was proper, and annoyed some people with my arguments, but eventually realized that even if the slab moved, that the hearth, if properly reinforced, would retain its structural integrity. The worst that would happen is that the oven will go a tiny bit out of level. I'm taking the EXTRA precaution of going below frost depth.

5. Will my stand not move a millimeter for 30 years? Probably not, but it's not going to move any more than most structures being discussed here.

6. Are my posts going to last forever? No, but probably they will last as long as the oven itself remains in functional repair. If not, in 15 or 20 years I can replace one or two, if I have the strength to dig a hole at that age.

7. Telling me to worry about pressure treated lumber coming near my food is bizarre! Between the wood and the pizza will be 3.5 inches of concrete, 2 inches of insblock insulation, and 2.5 inches of brick. People use the railing caps of my pressure treated lumber deck as standing tables all the time. There is only a coat of paint and a paper plate between that wood and their food. No-one has been poisoned at my house yet. Now even the insulation and bricks are made of potentially hazardous materials, but worrying about them being poisonous is almost as bad as worrying about being killed by a dictator or the weather. It sadly happens, but you can't stand around worrying about it.

Regards,

Ron

Last edited by ronwass; 05-20-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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  #47  
Old 05-21-2013, 05:37 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

You hit it right on the head!
People get annoyed because you ask for advice-
Then when advice is given, you want to argue about the merits of the advice.

Please go to a professional engineer or architect and have your project designed.
Then you can argue all you want with them once you get their bill--more when you have to pay for it!

You ever see "any treated wood objects" in any professional food preparation area? A big NO! Because "exactly what I told you--it is not allowed"!

People didn't think asbestos, lead paint, mercury or even radiation was dangerous! Dah!

If you have any more questions--surely you should consult the guy from Virginia who doesn't get flustered easily.

Last edited by mikku; 05-21-2013 at 06:33 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #48  
Old 05-21-2013, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

I should apologize.

I chose to respond to your thread, so it is my fault you think I'm a just crazy-mad-talk overkill foundation designer! You did not seek me out!

I guess sharing information means giving it freely and not expecting people to agree with what you say.

It is unfortunate that you cannot grasp the concept I am presenting, I have no way of creating an example using terms in music that you understand---I know none! So it is an impass, you cannot fathom what I am saying nor can you forsee problems in the future. I think in 3D Blueray maybe you think monochrome 8mm?

At the point of your build, which is very preliminary...you have not experienced the effort of actually constructing your oven. Once it is complete, you will want to keep it in prestine condition--so you do not have to do it again. When all your work on this oven is completed, you may have some different thoughts.

I prefer "overkill" to insufficient.

All that being said, keep an open mind---enjoy this new hobby, it can be frustrating, but...it is an opportunity to relax by taking your mind away from your normal activities...the more diverse the better. I used sarcasm several times in various posts, probably inappropriate. oreshiranzo!
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  #49  
Old 05-21-2013, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Hello users,
The Forno Bravo forum was created for wood-fired oven enthusiasts to share ideas, recipes, tips, etc.

We appreciate everyone's suggestions and opinions on oven installations and welcome all who are willing to share their ideas.

However, we will NOT tolerate aggressive or abusive posts from users. Every member has the right to post their thoughts on oven topics but it must be delivered with tact and consideration of others.

If this should continue, members will be banned until further notice and/or indefinitely.

We want to ensure the forum is a pleasurable experience for all.

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  #50  
Old 05-21-2013, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Thanks Moderator,

Last edited by Faith In Virginia; 05-21-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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