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  #21  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:21 PM
Peasant
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 43
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Faith and Gulf both have very good suggestions. Do both and use stainless steel carriage bolts. Treated wood is corrosive.
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  #22  
Old 05-16-2013, 03:49 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 590
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

I will try to attempt to explain how frost works on things, at least my experience with it, where I was dealing with minimum 5' frost footing depths.

If you bore a hole into the ground and put a post into it, either with crushed stone at the bottom, a rock, a poured footer (whatever) without attaching the post to the footer in some way, the post will rise with frost action.

It really does not matter- if your code says 3', 4' or 10'. The frost acts on the post itself in the frost range.

If you want your post not to rise, drill holes thru the bottom of the post and put rebar thru the holes- criss cross. then embed this in concrete... it helps.

Better yet, like I told you in a your other thread to have a lower pad with rebar protruding out of it--pour sonotube forms with concrete and make your base that way.

If I read the other thread correctly when others have used wooden bases, they were for lighter weight castable domes, not brick ones. Cast ones are very rigid and movement does little to harm them. I would assume if you are going through all the effort to make a "real brick oven", you would make a "real masonry base" to match the efforts.

I think what your making right now, would make a good preparation table!
I built in cold climates for 30 years, but I might be wrong! If you are talking wooden foundations for houses--they do not even put concrete below the walls--but that is for a different reason!
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  #23  
Old 05-16-2013, 08:11 PM
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New City, NY
Posts: 94
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Thanks for the carriage bolt idea. I'll probably go that way. Here is a pic of the concrete going into the last of the four foundation holes. Now the real building can begin.

(I also can't resist putting up a pic of my project that I just finished last week. I built these beams out of PVC lumber to replace totally rotted out ones. I still am going to put PVC cross pieces on top after I finish the oven, to make a very nice trellis.)
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  #24  
Old 05-17-2013, 06:12 AM
mrchipster's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
Posts: 1,214
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronwass View Post
Thanks for the carriage bolt idea. I'll probably go that way. Here is a pic of the concrete going into the last of the four foundation holes. Now the real building can begin.

(I also can't resist putting up a pic of my project that I just finished last week. I built these beams out of PVC lumber to replace totally rotted out ones. I still am going to put PVC cross pieces on top after I finish the oven, to make a very nice trellis.)
Just like an Italian cafe. Are you planning grape or other vines? Simply beautiful.

Chip
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  #25  
Old 05-19-2013, 06:27 PM
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New City, NY
Posts: 94
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Mikku, I ignored your other post because you were telling me to, I think, dig a three foot trench on all four sides of my stand. Total: 15 or so feet long. That would be kind of crazy.

Now, tell me how I am reading this post wrong: What would be the difference of putting my posts on top of the base pads like I am doing, versus your suggestion of using sonotubes? Wouldn't they be affected the same way?

How is a tiny bit of rebar going to prevent the posts from being pushed up if frost, as you say, will get to them anyway? Is this tiny bit of rebar stronger than the 2000 or so pounds of brick and concrete downward pressure?

BTW: I am putting concrete also around the posts after I put them on top of the pads.

The reason I am not making a 'real masonry base' is because my wife doesn't want a giant cube of concrete blocks in our yard. She has a point.

Also, as far as a preparation table is concerned, this is way overkill. I can use a $25 dollar Costco folding plastic picnic table for that. Actually that is what I plan on utilizing.

My stand my not last for the ages, and may move a bit, but as I posited in other threads, if you put a 4 inch concrete foundation right in the ground above frost level, like the pompeii plans state, even if you add insulation under it, it will probably get some movement. Besides, I'm going to have a 4 inch concrete hearth on top, fortified with rebar, and even if it goes slightly out of level, that probably will remain stable for a good long time.

Even wood foundations for houses in the olden days before pressure treating lasted a good long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikku View Post
I will try to attempt to explain how frost works on things, at least my experience with it, where I was dealing with minimum 5' frost footing depths.

If you bore a hole into the ground and put a post into it, either with crushed stone at the bottom, a rock, a poured footer (whatever) without attaching the post to the footer in some way, the post will rise with frost action.

It really does not matter- if your code says 3', 4' or 10'. The frost acts on the post itself in the frost range.

If you want your post not to rise, drill holes thru the bottom of the post and put rebar thru the holes- criss cross. then embed this in concrete... it helps.

Better yet, like I told you in a your other thread to have a lower pad with rebar protruding out of it--pour sonotube forms with concrete and make your base that way.

If I read the other thread correctly when others have used wooden bases, they were for lighter weight castable domes, not brick ones. Cast ones are very rigid and movement does little to harm them. I would assume if you are going through all the effort to make a "real brick oven", you would make a "real masonry base" to match the efforts.

I think what your making right now, would make a good preparation table!
I built in cold climates for 30 years, but I might be wrong! If you are talking wooden foundations for houses--they do not even put concrete below the walls--but that is for a different reason!
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  #26  
Old 05-20-2013, 05:48 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 590
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

First: I don't care what Forno Plans say
Second: I'm telling you how to deal with frost, in extreme climates.
Third: Frost or ice does not care how heavy or large something is; it will move it, crack it, or destroy it!

If you build a foundation with a "Base" below frostline, and columns rising from it that are attached to the base, the columns will not move. (period)!

What I thought I said before was "why waste the time digging a bunch of holes?" dig the whole thing out! not trenches--one big hole 3' deep, grave diggers do it all the time--except better than twice as deep and longer!

You have already proceeded past the point where most people would not redo something. If you want to do it right, take my advice.

Concrete if you mix it yourself is a lot cheaper than your treated timber. Also, it depends where you purchased the timber in the first place..is it regular treated or ground contact? And as far as using treated anywhere near food preparation--think twice! Ever look at the label about working and handling treated materials? Like wearing gloves, not inhaling the dust, not burning the scrap, washing your hands before eating, don't touch your face. Do you really want that stuff anywhere around where you prepare food?
If you do, your nuts!

The thread showing some other guy with casters under a wood cart... casters may hold the weight...but what about the pavers in the patio?

I just get all worked up when people intend to spend so much time, cutting and assembling a brick WFO and not take the time to build it on something substantial.

I'm not a teacher...so I have no patience!
That is all on the subject- my rant is finished! ignore it if you want.its your build
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2013, 05:52 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 590
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Explain wood foundation in the good old days lasting a long time?

Are you talking about piling? Or what?
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  #28  
Old 05-20-2013, 06:06 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 590
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

One last explanation.

Close your eyes,
think of a folding umbrella.
Think of the umbrella being closed with the little snap holding it that way

Now think of the closed umbrella being buried in dirt up to the handle.
Now think of of an open umbrella being buried in dirt up to the handle.

Now try pulling both umbrellas out!

Can you visualize the difference between what you are doing with the handle in the ground (post in the ground) and what I am saying???

If you can see any difference-maybe you can understand the need for a foundation that is physically tied together. If not???????????what can I say.
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  #29  
Old 05-20-2013, 06:30 AM
Faith In Virginia's Avatar
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 720
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

................

Last edited by Faith In Virginia; 05-21-2013 at 04:07 PM. Reason: No reasoning
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  #30  
Old 05-20-2013, 06:36 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 590
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

In an attempt not to tick you off, you haven't built where there is deep frost if you built in Virginia. When you have, you will understand.

Also, read the entire post--maybe you missed something.

Last edited by mikku; 05-20-2013 at 06:38 AM. Reason: more subtle language
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