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  #161  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:30 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

5thnaks guys found that discussion very interesting.
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  #162  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:31 AM
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Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Stonecutter,
I guess we are both typing and responding at the same time!
Cheers, I think you answered the question.
Mikku
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  #163  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

At the temperatures we fire to the castable does not get sintered ie quartz conversion to make the clay content permanent. That change takes place at 573 C and its strength then increases as the temp rises further and vitrification begins.. Castable that has been fired to a high temp say over 1000 C is sintered and is much stronger rather than relying on the chemical bonding of the calcium aluminate cement alone. Do not fire your oven as high as you can go in an effort to try and sinter the castable because with wood firing the temp is too hard to control and the critical temp of 500- 650 C ,where sudden thermal expansion and chemical changes occur, must be taken really slowly. Over firing will just damage your castable or mortar with a WFO.My mobile oven is a case in point. When I hire it out I can tell if a customer has tried to see how hot they can make the thermometer go, just like a car rental over speed bumps, "Let's give this thing a thrashing"
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Last edited by david s; 09-03-2013 at 04:45 AM.
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  #164  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

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Originally Posted by david s View Post
At the temperatures we fire to the castable does not get sintered ie quartz conversion to make the clay content permanent. That change takes place at 573 C and its strength then increases as the temp rises further and vitrification begins.. Castable that has been fired to a high temp say over 1000 C is sintered and is much stronger rather than relying on the chemical bonding of the calcium aluminate cement alone. Do not fire your oven as high as you can go in an effort to try and sinter the castable because with wood firing the temp is too hard to control and the critical temp of 500- 650 C ,where sudden thermal expansion and chemical changes occur, must be taken really slowly. Over firing will just damage your castable or mortar with a WFO.My mobile oven is a case in point. When I hire it out I can tell if a customer has tried to see how hot they can make the thermometer go, just like a car rental over speed bumps, "Let's give this thing a thrashing"
Fascinating David...I wondered about any physical change at high heat, but I never heard or read anything regarding physical changes in refractory material. If you have any specific papers or articles you would like to share, would you PM me?

I would consider that the change in refractory composition after high heat (vitrification) to be a metamorphic one. And, the temperatures needed to bring about those changes do not create the bonding properties (like actual chemical curing ) but instead, greatly strengthen the ones that exist within the cured material.

I like the rental car illustration too!
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Last edited by stonecutter; 09-03-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #165  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

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Can you give your opinion which material is most suitable for an oven, castable or firebrick?

Firebrick has all the mystery and artistry of the craftsman to showcase, but is it just an "old material" waiting for a slow death? In the case of ovens only?
My opinion on most suitable for an oven? I would say whatever is available or affordable. There are pros and cons to every type of material, subject to limitations in use and design.

I lean towards firebrick or SS (dome only), mainly because unit masonry pre-engineers the cracking in the structure...and as mentioned, gravity and load force will hold it together in spite of it. The common weakness I see in cast or formed ovens (cob & adobe) is that the cracking can be controlled to a point with 2,3 or 4 piece domes, and reinforcement, but once it starts within those segments, the service life of the oven gets shorter every heat cycle.

I also do not consider firebrick to be antiquated at all. If anything, it will get better and better as time goes on.

I think it is the craft of Masonry that is dieing a slow death...for various reasons. That topic will derail the thread further so I'll leave it at that.
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Last edited by stonecutter; 09-03-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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  #166  
Old 09-03-2013, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Ron, sorry for going off topic a bit and I hope that it wasn't confusing.
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  #167  
Old 09-07-2013, 09:03 PM
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Location: New City, NY
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Default While waiting for my insulation delivery, I started building the wood shelf.

Well, I can't cure the oven without the insulation, because I can't get the temperature up much past 300 deg.

So, I decided to start building the under-oven wood shelf. As you can see, the joists are made of pressure treated 2x4s. The decking is made of cedar deck boards. $50.00 for for 10 foot boards. Yikes. I didn't want to use the much less expensive pressure treated deck boards because I figured that some of the chemicals would seep into my firewood and then be burned in the oven. This is probably a very big exageration on my part, but the cedar does look better.

The second picture is from the side, so yes, the middle joist does go in the right direction.

I'm going to slightly round the boards with a small 1/4 inch cove at the sawn end, then paint the pressure treated wood beneath it the same color that I am going to paint the new deck that you can just see behind the oven.

The red stick sticking out from the oven leg is a temporary thing I am using to hold my water hose.
My idea is to leave about 3/4 inch space between each deck board for best drainage.

BTW, in the first picture that is oak on the left that I found in the woods near my house, and which I am saving for cooking. I don't know what that stuff is on the right. Some maple, and something else. I'm going to use that for curing burns.

The second picture was taken when rain was threatening, hence the rain tarps over the oven.
Attached Thumbnails
Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.-img_0763.jpg   Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.-img_0764.jpg  

Last edited by ronwass; 09-07-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #168  
Old 09-07-2013, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

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Originally Posted by stonecutter View Post
Ron, sorry for going off topic a bit and I hope that it wasn't confusing.
No prob. Seems to be the curse of my thread. My posts would have this thread at about 3 pages. With the tangents, it's up to 18 now.
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  #169  
Old 09-07-2013, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

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Originally Posted by mikku View Post

Some of the young Japanese customers have a fantacy about USA housing, they believe that living in an import house is like living the American Dream. I do everything that I can to make that true. I build houses that make you feel at home in--comfortable, safe, and warm...in a structure that can take a lot more seismic forces than the traditional zairai house and is much warmer and comfortable to live in.

So, yes---in one way people are buying based on framing member sizes, but 2x4 is really a building style that utilizes north American sized building components. I help the customers get USA products to make their house American--like doors and windows, flooring, carpeting, linoleum, cabinets, siding, roofing, furniture, lighting, plumbing fixtures---you name it...I can source it from people that I have worked with for the last 18 years located in Portland Oregon and Seattle, Washington... they consolidate supplies from all over the United States and ship to Japan!

I have been working with Japanese tradesman and contractors showing them how to properly install and maintain the products that we import into Japan.


Don't limit products to be only from USA, we have imported container loads of "sheeps wool" insulation from New Zealand and that is a great "natural fiber" building product that has exceptional insulation qualities!
So they aren't necessarily asking for a specific stud size, but the term has come to mean an American Style of house. Do I get the general idea?

One more question, Are they generally tending to be smaller buildings than what we have here? Housing generally is smaller there, hotel rooms too, although one of the most comfortable hotels I ever stayed at was in a tiny room (in a big hotel) in Tokyo.

Love Tokyo and Japan. Food nirvana.

Last edited by ronwass; 09-07-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  #170  
Old 09-08-2013, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Another "off thread" answer but here goes.
The sizes of the houses are usually determined by the location within Japan.
Another determining factor is the location of a structure within a city.

As an example: Tochigi Prefecture, Utsunomiya - near the train station, land can be purchased for around $1200 to $1500 per square meter and a lot size might be 130 meters square. So you might put a 100sq meter house (two story) and pass building codes for percentage of land used for structure.

If you built in Tokyo, the land might be 100 times more expensive.

If you build where I live, land can still be gotten for $30 per square meter for typical lots of 450 to 500sq meter.

An average size house in my area is around 1450 square feet. Tokyo much smaller because of the land factor and being able to make payments even at zero interest on a 35 year loan!

Some companies like Honda help their employees with getting loans and have huge retirement bonuses to help the final payments to finish a loan!

The houses I build now--if you did not look at road signs or license plate numbers of cars parked in driveways--the house could be from any New England neighborhood and fit right in--including all the furnishings.

My builds is similar to that of "Sarah Susanka", or a Northern Minnesota architect named "David Salmela"--you can google his name and see his work as photographed by "Peter Kerzie".. Two of the homes I built for Davids' customers are showcased in books that display his special type of design. I'm proud of the work I created working with him--he was always a pleasure to work with. But that was 30 years ago.
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