Go Back   Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community > Pizza Oven Design and Installation > Getting Started

Like Tree7Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 09-02-2013, 07:36 PM
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New City, NY
Posts: 94
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecutter View Post
Mortar should not be cured by fire.
Now, what does that mean? I'm just following the book about the curing fires. Chapter 17, page 65. Everybody does it around here. What are you saying?

What is this contrarian talk?

Last edited by ronwass; 09-02-2013 at 07:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 09-02-2013, 07:48 PM
stonecutter's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Carolina,USA
Posts: 1,521
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronwass View Post
Now, what does that mean? I'm just following the book about the curing fires. Chapter 17, page 65. Everybody does it around here. What are you saying?

What is this contrarian talk?
It is not contrary to anything, it is advice. My reply was to something in post 149 about fire curing mortar. Mortar should be cured before firing the oven, so that it can reach maximum strength. Firing an oven after that isn't really 'curing' in the true sense of the word,...you are ridding the masonry of moisture.

Sorry for the confusion.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Current WFO build -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 09-02-2013, 07:54 PM
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New City, NY
Posts: 94
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

I'm curing the oven, I'm curing the oven. That's the exact word in the book. Mortar has been curing for many many days now without heat. Kept it moist, etc, etc, etc. etc.

Also, Mikku, people in Japan actually ask for a specific size of stud in the construction of their houses?
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 09-02-2013, 08:30 PM
stonecutter's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Carolina,USA
Posts: 1,521
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronwass View Post
I'm curing the oven, I'm curing the oven. That's the exact word in the book. Mortar has been curing for many many days now without heat. Kept it moist, etc, etc, etc. etc
The book is a very good oven guide, but many masonry terms and techniques can be and are confused. I addressed a specific term...I didn't say you did anything wrong.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Current WFO build -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Last edited by stonecutter; 09-02-2013 at 08:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 09-02-2013, 09:44 PM
david s's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,513
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecutter View Post
It is not contrary to anything, it is advice. My reply was to something in post 149 about fire curing mortar. Mortar should be cured before firing the oven, so that it can reach maximum strength. Firing an oven after that isn't really 'curing' in the true sense of the word,...you are ridding the masonry of moisture.
Sorry for the confusion.
I totally agree. The term curing fires is misleading. I prefer to refer to it as "driving off the moisture". I've suggested this change in "recommended changes" but maybe the term is so ingrained that they don't want to change it.
To cure cement products you hold the moisture in (hydration process), but then to cure the oven you drive the water out, most confusing.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 09-03-2013, 03:31 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 589
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Hey! Now both Stonecutter and Davids got me all cornfused. So when I was doing the progressively hotter and hotter fires what was I doing with my refractory mortar but curing it with fire?

Is that the difference between refractory and brick ovens? Refractory needs the curing fires to bring it to strength but the brick ones--the firebrick are already to strength and all you are doing is getting rid of the excess water?

Then why are all those brick ovens creating cracks during their de-watering process and mine is crack free during my curing fire?

Yep! still a newbie--please make the point clear!
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:04 AM
stonecutter's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Carolina,USA
Posts: 1,521
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikku View Post
Hey! Now both Stonecutter and Davids got me all cornfused. So when I was doing the progressively hotter and hotter fires what was I doing with my refractory mortar but curing it with fire?
Material like mortar, castable refractory, concrete, etc,etc, cures through chemical reaction, absorbing carbon dioxide and moisture evaporation. Some material, depending on it's contents, cure faster than others. Faster setting material creates it's own heat. Even using warm water in a mortar mix will speed cure time ( not a good thing )

Firing uncured masonry obviously creates more heat than the naturally occurring chemical reaction. Driving out moisture is good for firing during use, as we all know, steam can be damaging through pressure.

Firing the masonry before it is cured weakens the material, because it needs to be completely hydrated in order to achieve maximum strength.


Time puts practice to the test...a few months of use does not. And, understand I am not saying anyone did anything 'wrong'...you may not see any cracking for a long time. But the margin for error goes up drastically if you do not fully cure material containing portland cement.
david s likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Current WFO build -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Last edited by stonecutter; 09-03-2013 at 04:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:13 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 589
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Ronwass you asked a question that is off thread, but I am glad to answer it--as long as someone doesn't jump into my crap.

Here goes:
In Japan, there are a whole lot of different method to build housing. The Japanese traditional was is called "zairai"- translated to English it means "post and beam construction". It is based on an old method of measurement using "shaku" as the base. 1-shaku is almost 1 foot. Really very close at 300 millemeters. Modern "shaku" is 303mm. Also "shaku" is divided into 10ths and each 10th is called a "sun" (soon pronunciation), and each "sun" is again divided into 10ths and called "bun". Most pieces in the structure are built with a multiple of shaku--floor joist sometimes 1-shaku spacing, Or 1.5 spacing (shaku-go-sun)---the method and measurements are confusing but only to westerners. Also sizes can be given in "ken" which is "6 shaku"- Which is also about the height of a person. But these dimensions have evolved over time and gotten bigger as the size of a Japanese person has increased.

Anyway, zairai is one form of building and is most used throughout Japan.
Usually zairai has posts placed on a 6 foot module (6-shaku) and on top of the posts are beams that can carry the weight of the structure above-either a roof or a second or 3rd floor. All the infill wooded members are much smaller- like 27 mm x the wall thickness- The wall thickness varies from 90mm up to 150 to 180mm depending on the structure. And sometimes, the framing members are actually round logs! Really a lot of variables!

Other building types are:
Prefab- or modular housing using wooden components
Prefab- or modular housing using steel components
Precast concrete
Steel buildings not prefab
North American 2x4 (but adjusted to Japan Standards)
North American 2x4 (same as framed structures in USA and Canada)

The final two are considered "import housing" and that is what I have been working with for the last 18 years. Prior to that I built housing in the USA for over 20 years.

Some of the young Japanese customers have a fantacy about USA housing, they believe that living in an import house is like living the American Dream. I do everything that I can to make that true. I build houses that make you feel at home in--comfortable, safe, and warm...in a structure that can take a lot more seismic forces than the traditional zairai house and is much warmer and comfortable to live in.

So, yes---in one way people are buying based on framing member sizes, but 2x4 is really a building style that utilizes north American sized building components. I help the customers get USA products to make their house American--like doors and windows, flooring, carpeting, linoleum, cabinets, siding, roofing, furniture, lighting, plumbing fixtures---you name it...I can source it from people that I have worked with for the last 18 years located in Portland Oregon and Seattle, Washington... they consolidate supplies from all over the United States and ship to Japan!

I have been working with Japanese tradesman and contractors showing them how to properly install and maintain the products that we import into Japan.

I'm just a piss-ant by comparison to the large importers and builders. But there are a lot of homes and happy customers that I have worked with over the years. I'm working here because I like working with my hands and this is an interesting place to live!

So, end of commercial--I didn't give any names and won't, didn't promote anything accept an American lifestyle--based upon a building technique called "North American 2x4 Platform Framing".

Don't limit products to be only from USA, we have imported container loads of "sheeps wool" insulation from New Zealand and that is a great "natural fiber" building product that has exceptional insulation qualities!
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:21 AM
stonecutter's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Carolina,USA
Posts: 1,521
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikku View Post
Is that the difference between refractory and brick ovens? Refractory needs the curing fires to bring it to strength but the brick ones--the firebrick are already to strength and all you are doing is getting rid of the excess water?

Then why are all those brick ovens creating cracks during their de-watering process and mine is crack free during my curing fire?
Firebrick does not need fire to give it strength, neither does refractory material. A lot of variables and I have no time now, but it all has to do with moisture and the time it takes for the material to chemically harden.


The cracking of a brick oven usually has nothing to do with the material itself, but is the result of dynamic forces transferred into and through the masonry. These same forces are applied to castable, but the network of interwoven particles are on a much smaller scale than the brick. If there is a weakness in this microscopic network, you will see cracking. Eventually, ALL castable will crack, the questions are where and when.
Cracks (expansion) in a dome are not always an indicator of a failed structure either. The advantage brick has over castable is this unit arrangement. The mortar isn't really there to hold the structure all together, gravity and load forces can do that even with no mortar.

That said, to each his own.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Current WFO build -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Last edited by stonecutter; 09-03-2013 at 02:46 PM. Reason: restructured text
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:27 AM
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tochigi Prefecture, Japan
Posts: 589
Default Re: Rockland County, NY 36" build with pictures.

Hello Stonecutter!

I am glad to hear you contributing on a topic that is important and you have a deep interest in!

Can you give your opinion which material is most suitable for an oven, castable or firebrick?

Firebrick has all the mystery and artistry of the craftsman to showcase, but is it just an "old material" waiting for a slow death? In the case of ovens only?

I know that your arsenal of materials include everything-stone, brick, block, old and new, handmade and mass produced products but I am sure you can give an unbiased opinion on the two!

Thanks for your always--on point observations and advice!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Starting new 36" build deejayoh Getting Started 384 02-08-2014 06:00 PM
36" build in London, UK GeorgePalmer Brick Oven Photos 23 04-13-2012 11:48 AM
Near completion, Pompeii build Jed Brick Oven Photos 5 05-28-2008 09:48 PM
Considering build of Pompeii oven jet Pompeii Oven Construction 21 05-10-2008 12:14 AM
oven build with pictures brokencookie Brick Oven Photos 4 04-10-2008 11:42 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
2006/10 Forno Bravo, LLC