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wisnoskij 09-22-2013 05:58 PM

Insulation Thickness
 
Here goes again, this did not seem to submit last time.

I have been trying to figure out how to calculate how much insulation to use.

If I use Insulating Fire-brick for example, What thickness is thick enough to fully insulate a wood-fired oven?


Specifically I am thinking that I am not really interested in heating up a few hundred pounds of bricks, so am thinking of the internal just being straight insulating fire-brick. I understand the point of the heat absorption/retaining, but would rather just have direct fire heat.

And particularly for the dome roof, it would be sooo much simpler, lighter, and cheaper to just go one straight layer. And I love the look of brick. If I just went one layer of IRB How thick would I want this, specifically for short burnings? I am not running a commercial operation here, I am really thinking a normal use case would be a few hours.

Also, it is a lot of a softer product than dense FB, so would that mean that I would not want it as my oven floor, as all the metal tools and wear and tear would damage it a little too fast? I think it is still supposed to be about normal brick strength, so it should not be too bad.

the big bonus of just fire-brick insulation is the price, if I put anything else, not only do I have to pay for that, but than probably also some a layer of normal brick (or whatever to cover it and protect it form the weather). And then it is like 3 times heavier, and I need to increase the foundation.

I understand that they can be a lot more expensive, and cost is a huge issue, but I am thinking because I might be able to significantly cut down on the amount of materials needed, it is so elegantly serves what I what for a oven, that it might work out the best for me.

what are your opinions on this?

boerwarrior 09-23-2013 10:26 AM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
Hi Wisnoskij

I'm not sure I understand your question...

are you basically asking if you can build your oven out of insulation? I'm not sure why you would want to do that - it would be like cooking food in a regular fireplace with the only heat coming from the fire. If you want to do that you are probably wasting time and money by following the plans and advice here - you could simply build a brick "box."

Forgive me if I have misunderstood!

Tscarborough 09-23-2013 10:50 AM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
As stated, the entire point of a wood fired oven is it's ability to retain heat. You can make the mass thinner, but not really less dense. IFB are 4 to 5 times the cost of low duty firebrick, and are very soft. The firebrick are cheap, and you can use cheap insulation, too (perlite).

wisnoskij 09-23-2013 11:56 AM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
"cooking food in a regular fireplace with the only heat coming from the fire"
yes, but there would be insulation holding the heat in.

I am not some fancy chef, all I want to the ability to cook with a wood fire and for it to be as economical and efficient as possible. So it would use the same basic design and materials, but without the heat holding ability. I think this can be as efficient longterm and even more efficient for short burns than using a large mass of heat storing FB. But I might be wrong.

And it would be far far harder to maintain a steady heat. But for the most part 350 degrees is a pretty arbitrary temperature, 400 or 300 are close enough.

Am I being completely crazy?

wisnoskij 09-23-2013 12:03 PM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
Also I have no idea how you could ever use Perlite as "Perlite is a type of volcanic glass that expands four to twenty times its original volume and becomes porous when heated."
Umm, so if I put perlite in a wall that wall will explode outwards the first time that it gets hot?

As 1 inch of insulation will become 4 to 1 foot 8 inches thick when heated???

rsandler 09-23-2013 12:13 PM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wisnoskij (Post 162348)
"cooking food in a regular fireplace with the only heat coming from the fire"
yes, but there would be insulation holding the heat in.

Holding it in where, exactly? The air in the oven isn't going to stay put. You need somewhere to store heat for the insulation to do any good. Part of the point of a brick oven is that you get all three kinds of heat--radiant heat from the dome, conduction from the brick directly into the food, and convection as the hot air blows around the dome. Without some kind of thermal mass, you lose the conduction and radiant heat.

If what you're really getting at is an oven that heats up quickly, and don't care about heat retention, a thin-shelled dome may be the way to go. FornoBravo sells a couple of small, fully assembled, cast domes that might fit the bill. A steel dome might also suit. Theoretically you could build a thin dome out of dense firebricks, but I'm not sure how sturdy this would be--Tscarborough or someone else who actually knows about these things would have to chime in.

That said, you mentioned wanting simple cooking, and some of the best food I've made in my oven is by taking a big hunk of meat, throwing it in the oven after it's cooled down below 300F, and coming back the next day to cut it up for dinner.

rsandler 09-23-2013 12:19 PM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wisnoskij (Post 162349)
Also I have no idea how you could ever use Perlite as "Perlite is a type of volcanic glass that expands four to twenty times its original volume and becomes porous when heated."
Umm, so if I put perlite in a wall that wall will explode outwards the first time that it gets hot?

As 1 inch of insulation will become 4 to 1 foot 8 inches thick when heated???

As far as I can tell, it is typically expanded perlite that is sold in stores, so you wouldn't have that problem. In any event, perlite undergoes expansion at over 850C, and there is absolutely no way you'd get the outer surface of a brick oven that hot. Perlite-concrete ("Perlcrete") is frequently used as insulation on brick ovens. Same idea as using vermiculite.

Tscarborough 09-23-2013 12:32 PM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
" But I might be wrong."

You are wrong. Fire works by consuming oxygen and wood, thus, you will be venting the hot air and drawing in cold air. Just buy a weber grill and call it good.

wisnoskij 09-23-2013 01:13 PM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
"Holding it in where, exactly? The air in the oven isn't going to stay put. You need somewhere to store heat for the insulation to do any good. Part of the point of a brick oven is that you get all three kinds of heat--radiant heat from the dome, conduction from the brick directly into the food, and convection as the hot air blows around the dome. Without some kind of thermal mass, you lose the conduction and radiant heat."

But that is the same problem that your oven will have when fully heated? The only difference between yours and mine is that yours quickly absorbs the heat out of the air and take a while to heat up, while mine does so quickly and requires a fire to keep warm. And specifically what I was thinking was to have the out vent below the ceiling hight, so it was more of the slightly colder hot air that escaped, than the warmest top layer.

"You are wrong. Fire works by consuming oxygen and wood, thus, you will be venting the hot air and drawing in cold air."
That is how all wood fire ovens work...

But I think you have convinced me, if no one has ever heard of a successful insulation only oven, it is probably because it was a stupid idea.

OK, so say you have convinced me. But if I still think that my normal use case is rather short (I am not opening a commercial pizzeria or a bakery), that does mean that I should use less heat storage mass, right? I would not want a foot of FB, I would want an inch or two?


And thanks everyone for your help so far.

david s 09-23-2013 04:44 PM

Re: Insulation Thickness
 
IFB is used successfully as both the inner refractory and insulation for kilns fired to stoneware temperatures (1200+ C) at 4" thick walls.I can't see why they wouldn't work in an oven. The won't store much heat, but if your intention is to use the active fire to cook the top of the pizza I think it would work ok. The downside as has already been stated is that they are expensive and abrade easily. They would not be suitable for the floor though. You really do need heat storage there to cook the base of the pizza as well as having a more durable surface. Dense firebrick is the better solution here.


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