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-   -   38" build in southern IL (http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f6/38-build-southern-il-19468.html)

kanoer54 05-30-2013 11:40 AM

38" build in southern IL
 
I have been following this site and the forum for several months now. What a great site! Lots of great ideas and comments from everyone. Well, I am ready to jump in to the adventure of building a WFO. However, a brick patio using the ka-chink method to cut bricks is the only brick experience I have. Most of the insulation, brick, IT, etc is in my garage ready to go, so this project will be a challenge. Before i start i have a question for whomever may want to comment.

Some background might also help. Somewhere on one of the threads and photos I checked out a couple months ago i saw a comment about using concrete manhole products to support the oven platform. So I thought, hey, why not? I did some research and found it to be quicker and more cost effective than pouring my own pad, block walls and concrete platform, at least in my area of the country. I have had delivered (a story for another day) on a rainy day a couple weeks ago an 8" thick reinforced concrete footing/foundation slab, a 36" tall manhole structure (5'ID/6'OD) and an 8" thick slab on which to build the oven.

My question is...under the oven vent landing, can I use 6-1/2 inches of fire brick in lieu of 2-1/2 " of fire brick and 4" of ceramic fiber board insulation? The brick is less expensive than board and the board would not get wet and hold water...which could be an issue from what I've read on the forum.

I'll post pics as i get to them. Comments and assistance is always welcome and greatly appreciated.

thanks...jon

boerwarrior 05-30-2013 12:57 PM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
Jon, I'll jump in here.

Welcome to the forum!

Warning: I am still in the process of building my oven so some of my perspective is based on what I've read!

The potential issue you may have is heat being sucked out of the landing.... Of course the landing is going to be much cooler than the inside of the oven so the risk isn't huge. Are you considering a thermal break between the inner and outer arches and floor? If yes, then your approach is probably fine. Just my guess!

My build is here:
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/3...nia-19283.html

Neil

kanoer54 05-31-2013 01:08 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
My thoughts are on a thermal break between the inner arch and the floor. As of now, I was not planning on a thermal break between the inner arch and the vent wall supports. I am planning on using two 2 foot sections of clay tile (8"ID/10"OD) for the vent. Each of these weigh 54 pounds and I am not sure about supporting them on fire brick vent walls which would only be tied in at the front arch.

I'm not real computer savvy. Part of the serf to peasant training I think. I'd post some sketches I drew up but haven't been able to figure out how to attach them to the thread yet. Any help here would also be appreciated.

thanks...jon

boerwarrior 05-31-2013 07:26 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kanoer54 (Post 154129)
My thoughts are on a thermal break between the inner arch and the floor. As of now, I was not planning on a thermal break between the inner arch and the vent wall supports. I am planning on using two 2 foot sections of clay tile (8"ID/10"OD) for the vent. Each of these weigh 54 pounds and I am not sure about supporting them on fire brick vent walls which would only be tied in at the front arch.

I'm not real computer savvy. Part of the serf to peasant training I think. I'd post some sketches I drew up but haven't been able to figure out how to attach them to the thread yet. Any help here would also be appreciated.

thanks...jon

Jon, I added cast iron brackets as buttressing to the sides of my outer arch. See photo. No experience yet with how they will work but they are bolted into the concrete base with concrete anchors and they feel rock solid - so I am confident.

the easiest way to add photos is:
- save your photos to a directory on your computer. Preferably as a .jpg (jpeg) file
- if the photos are large (many MB) then use editing software to reduce the size down to around the 500kB size - the photo editor that comes with Microsoft Office works fine or you can download free editors off the internet
- click the paperclip icon in the forum editor toolbar (next to the smiley face!)
- Use Browse to find the saved photo in the directory you saved it in previously
- Upload the photo using the "upload" button
- Close the upload window
- You're done!

(if the photo refuses to upload it is normally a sign that it is still too big)

Neil

kanoer54 06-01-2013 07:14 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
2 Attachment(s)
neil,
thanks for the heads up on the picture downloading. i hope to get it figured out shortly as i do have some sketches and some progress photos of the base to post. as we had yet another night of torrential rains (2.4 inches and still coming down) i may work out in the shop to finish the insulation cut and dry fit and start on brick layout.

jon

kanoer54 06-01-2013 07:19 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
oops, apparently i need another cup of coffee. after i submitted my previous post, i realized my sketches still had my old company name. i am recently retired and just picked up an old sketch pad.....i am NOT endorsing any company or anything. my error. won't happen again!!!

kanoer54 06-01-2013 07:49 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
4 Attachment(s)
now that neil directed me what the paper clip symbol is for i managed to figure out how to post pictures and a couple of my sketches. i probably should have listened to the computer geeks at work when they offered classes. also had some help from my wife who seems to know more about computers than me....thank goodness.

well here are a couple pics a week or so ago the day i got the concrete base slab, manhole pipe and custom top delivered. i spent a lot of time working on the design for the base, the manhole structure and the top. they put in two mats of #4 and #5 rebar 8 inches on center both directions for the base slab and top oven build concrete slab. the manhole structure is 36 inches high 5'ID/6'OD with 6 inch walls and looks like a mickey mouse head when looking down. probably overkill but i almost feel like i could use it for a storm shelter if i just added steel doors.

really antsy to start cutting and laying brick. just need to be patient about getting some less rainy weather i guess

Gulf 06-01-2013 09:34 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
That is a very interesting build that you've started there, Jon! I do like the base.
From the sketch, it looks like you are going to have a 6" thick concrete enclosure?. Wow!!....that's heavy duty with the emphasis on heavy. I am probably not reading the plans correctly, but it looks like the structural part of the dome will sit directly on the concrete hearth. Please, correct me if I am wrong, because that would be a mistake. There are a couple more things that concern me a little, but the main point that I/we want to bring home is that the dome and floor need to be sitting on and in a "cacoon" of insulation.

Again, I may be reading the plans wrong, just say'n :).

SCChris 06-01-2013 11:51 AM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gulf (Post 154194)
the main point that I/we want to bring home is that the dome and floor need to be sitting on and in a "cacoon" of insulation.

Again, I may be reading the plans wrong, just say'n :).

Ditto what Gulf is saying.. Insulation isn't everything, but if you search around you'll find several "help" posts from people who didn't have insulation.. Floor insulation is most often overlooked in other web plans and getting the floor hot and keeping it hot is really an effort without. I have 2 inches of rigid CalSil insulation under the floor bricks and my oven is surrounded with as much insulation as I could fit within the oven house, I have never regretted maximizing my insulation. When I cook pizza for dinner and close the door 2 days later the oven interior is still at 375F. I can always open things up and cool things down and this really opens the door for a lot of really fine cooking..

Welcome to the forum!

Chris

kanoer54 06-01-2013 12:17 PM

Re: 38" build in southern IL
 
gulf,
thanks for noting that. you and others are thinking, what kind of nut wants to build a dome and then stick it in a concrete manhole structure. i guess i was inspired by a photo i saw on the forum in january.

i initially drew it that way not knowing any better (serf dumbness!) but then did figure out, after following other builds pics, that the dome has to sit on insulation. i have since corrected that and plan on having two 2" layers of 8# ceramic fiber board under the entire dome and floor. nice catch as i learned a lot from the forum after i drew the sketch.

i was mainly trying to see if i could fit it all in a 50"ID/60"OD structure, including a clay tile flue but finally determined after beating my head against the wall, i needed a 5'ID/6'OD structure or the flue would have to go outside the manhole structure. thus the larger structure,

to show my serf ignorance, i had even thought if one layer of brick floor is good, two may be better to provide more thermal mass. i decided to switch that around once a kept reading the forum.

since you jumped in and are a much, much higher pay grade, am i correct that i should use sand to level up the insulation board over any slight (and i mean slight, less than 1/32") irregularities? how about between the insulation and the hearth floor? will the fine masons sand be satisfactory? i was thinking the washed river sand may be too course. any thoughts from you or anyone?

and then speaking of hearth floor, would there be any issues with using 12"x12"x2-1/2" medium duty fire bricks set on a diagonal pattern for the floor in lieu of the medium duty 9"x4-1/2"x2-1/2" fire brick?

one thing not shown on the sketches is that i do plan on filling the whole space around the dome with vermiculite for insulation.

gulf, you mentioned in your post there are a couple more things. could you elaborate on these please!!!. i'd rather address any concerns now than later. as i go along this build you'll find i am pretty anal about doing things right the first time. i hate tearing things down when more planning and thought would have made the project a lot easier.

lots to learn on my part.
jon


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