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  #151  
Old 04-30-2013, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

I read on the Internet (so it must be true) that the hw 413 was could be used in place of the fb mortar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by geisen View Post
Reviving an old thread.
I was trying to find a local San Diego source for refractory Mortar, blanket and Insullation Boards. Found a local distributor (squiresbelt.com‎) for equivalents to all three, though only the mortar is going to save me any money.

Sent the FB spec sheets to HW and got the following response (my price comparison in parens):

"The Harbison-Walker Refractory equivalent to the RefMix mortar is MORTAR MIX 413 (50lbs = $35; vs. FB 22lbs = $35). As you continue to search for alternate refractory sources for this material, keep in mind that it is important that a high temperature mortar used for outdoor ovens exposed to weather must be hydraulically bonded. MORTAR MIX 413 was developed for this application. Most refractory mortars are alkali silicate-bonded and have binder systems that are somewhat water soluble. This causes them to degrade with extended service in outdoor ovens.
Hopefully this is the case and just my needing to move up the learning curve in terms of the consistency of the mix and it applying to the bricks. I have been watching you tube videos of brick being laid. Depending on weather, I will mix some up and try again tomorrow. I probably needed a reality check about now, the build had been going so smoothly. Bruce
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  #152  
Old 04-30-2013, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobblerdave View Post
Gudday Bruce
I have not used hi temp mortar so I hope someone chips in with some better detail.From what I have read. Hi temp mortar doesn't "cure" as such at first only drys off its water content it cures only after it heated during your ovens curing fires. So it appears the bond between the brick will be delicate? ( I hope that's the right word) till fired I suspect.
Regards dave
I'm hoping I have the correct mortar (see the previous post). If not, I'll have to try harder to find a source for the lime. Bruce
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  #153  
Old 05-01-2013, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

Has any of it actually set?
How long have the bricks been laid?
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  #154  
Old 05-01-2013, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

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Originally Posted by brickie in oz View Post
Has any of it actually set?
How long have the bricks been laid?
It has been about 20 hours now. The mortar seems to have set though none of the bricks stuck together. This is shown in the first two images.

The remaining images are from this a.m. After looking at the videos, it appeared I made a number of mistakes in my first attempt in addition to adding too much water to the mix. I was only buttering one side of the bricks and not using enough mortar. I mixed up a small amount of mortar and tried to get to the consistency of "peanut butter." I hand mixed with the trowel but the mix acted like natural peanut butter with oil (in this case water) coming to the top. The mix would seem thick enough but as the water came out, when mixed back up it would be too thin. When I thought I had the correct consistency, I tried mortaring some of the brick cuttings. I buttered both sides and gently pressed together, using the trowel to remove some of the excess. After the mortar seemed to be setting, I used a wet rag to clean the surface of the first three joints but left the last with extra mortar on top. Looks like these have a pretty good chance of working.

If you look carefully at the last image, water can be seen pooling on top of the mortar. This was also occurring with the first three joints, with very thin watery mortar oozing out the edges of the joints. If the mortar was allowed to rest a minute of so, this would also occur to the mortar in the tray. Does this mean the mortar was still too wet or not mechanically mix enough? Or for that matter, is it normal.
Attached Thumbnails
36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly-image_9a335644-859c-4dbd-af3e-9cec95eab613.jpg   36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly-image_0e232549-c984-40fd-8e41-cf729b40e96f.jpg   36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly-image_a87fe12b-ae95-4f79-84ab-f2d4c510a47b.jpg   36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly-image_28f86749-ba8f-4315-9d20-97dcce866731.jpg   36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly-image_b98bc7d6-996a-4dcf-a9c6-435023c853dc.jpg  

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  #155  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

Reread the High Heat Mortar Primer sticky. Looks like I could have used home brew from the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchoven View Post
Not really sure how I missed this posting and apologize for it...type N masonry cement is mixed at 50/50 portland to lime as is portland lime mix...in this instance it should be 2 parts cement 1 fireclay and 3 sand...that is exactly what I used for our oven build and it dried nice and hard quite quickly...although we haven't fired it yet I am confident in it as a mix...that will also work well for rendering the dome if that is how you plan to finish it as the type N is a bit stickier than other types of mortar...for the render you can add more sand...typically type N gets anywhere from 6 to 9 parts sand when being used to lay brick
Best
Dutch
The type N masonry cement appears locally available.
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  #156  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

I googled for instructions and found this:

Pre-mixed Mortar

This is the easiest mortar of all to make. Pre-mixed mortar is a combination of Portland Cement, Hydrated Lime, and Masonry Sand already blended together in the proper proportions to make a Type S mortar. All that is needed is to add sufficient water to achieve the desired consistency, usually about 5 to 6 quarts for an 80# bag. Pre-mixed mortars are a little unique in that they require a slightly modified mixing procedure.

Mixing Procedure

Put 2/3 to 3/4 of the water into the mixer
Add the Pre-mixed mortar into the mixer, adding water as necessary to achieve the desired consistency
Mix for 3 to5 minutes, turn off the mixer and allow mortar to “slake” for 2 to 3 minutes, re-start the mixer and mix for an additional 2 to 3 minutes adding water as necessary to achieve desired consistency.
Pre-mixed mortars use a kiln dried sand that has a higher water demand. It takes a few minutes for all of the water to be absorbed into the dry sand, hence the need for a prolonged mixing time. If you do not allow the mortar to set and “slake”, it will feel gritty on the trowel and will be difficult to work with.

Do these instructions sound right, if so, I have not been mixing nearly enough. Bruce
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  #157  
Old 05-01-2013, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

Gudday Bruce
Mixing small batches .....get one of those cheap paint mixers the one designed to mix 20 lt cans. Just put it on your electric drill . Full a bucket of water and use a dipper so you have better control over how much water goes in, never be tempted to use the hose!
36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly-image.jpg
The trowel pictured is easy to use due to the round end( brickie by this stage is not impressed as its use is for plastering )
The vinegar is to take the sting out of your hands after you can't help yourself and play with the mortar. No it will not heal them the damage is done
Regards Dave
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  #158  
Old 05-01-2013, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobblerdave View Post
Gudday Bruce
Attachment 35324
The trowel pictured is easy to use due to the round end( brickie by this stage is not impressed as its use is for plastering )
Look what I have:
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  #159  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

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Originally Posted by cobblerdave View Post
Gudday ( brickie by this stage is not impressed as its use is for plastering )
I think youll find it was Rockcutter who said that......

That style of trowel is used mainly by roof tilers here in Oz, not plasterers.
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Last edited by brickie in oz; 05-01-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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  #160  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: 36" build in Tallahassee - AKA Bruce's Folly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bec1208 View Post
I was only buttering one side of the bricks and not using enough mortar.
You should only have to butter one side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bec1208 View Post
I mixed up a small amount of mortar and tried to get to the consistency of "peanut butter." I hand mixed with the trowel but the mix acted like natural peanut butter with oil (in this case water) coming to the top.
I always advocate a small dash of dish washing detergent, it will coat all the particles in the mix and stop them repelling the water.

I worked with so many other bricklayers over the years who absolutely struggled with their mortar and the water bleed off, they would spend all day knocking up the mortar, (remixing) it gets even worse in hot weather.
They can not believe the difference in the mortar when I tell them about using a surfactant in the mix.

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Originally Posted by Bec1208 View Post
The mix would seem thick enough but as the water came out, when mixed back up it would be too thin.
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bec1208 View Post
with very thin watery mortar oozing out the edges of the joints. If the mortar was allowed to rest a minute of so, this would also occur to the mortar in the tray.
This again is water bleed, your bricks are obviously wet, in the trade Ive had to lay wet bricks due to the weather catching us out, it happens mainly with solids but they actually float on the thin film of water, and you can see it oozing out from between the brick and the mortar.
Its not desirable because the bond from brick to mortar is lost.
It wont happen to wire cuts, the ones with the holes, as the water fills the holes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bec1208 View Post
Does this mean the mortar was still too wet or not mechanically mix enough? Or for that matter, is it normal.
5 minutes is plenty of time to mix mortar.
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Last edited by brickie in oz; 05-01-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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