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  #291  
Old 01-18-2014, 02:12 AM
Journeyman
 
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Got an idea...

I've seen how the floor can get too hot and burn the crust. What if I had air vents from the area of the door running under the bricks to where the fire is. The brick floor could be supported underneath by bricks on their side letting air through under the floor. The updraft of the fire would pull cooler air from the door under the floor keeping it from getting too hot. If the floor were not hot enough then the air vent entrance could be partially blocked with a brick. If the air passage were completely cut off the air space would just be more insulation. One thing that concerns me is cleaning out the ash from under.

Thoughts?
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  #292  
Old 01-18-2014, 03:21 AM
cobblerdave's Avatar
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Gudday Lancer
Settle down with the mods,if you want to change a formulae that thousand of years proven because it relies on natures rules do so at your peril.
These ovens breath naturally and after you have flashed one up for the first time you will be amazed on how they work by them selfs without fancy controls.
You start the fire up , usually in the entrance and then you push it into the oven proper. It's now in a cold oven and a smoke layer develops at the top 1/2. The bottom 1/2 remains clear as its clean air that's being drawn in through the door. That's where the 63 per cent roof height and 20 in door width come into play. Suddenly you will reach the point where the heat is being defected back on the fire itself, the smoke suddenly clears as the heat burns the smoke off. Smoke is incomplete combustion really.
From this point on it feeding the fire. Put on big logs or fill it to fast, the fire suffers from lack of air and gets smoky again.
Feed it sticks and wood no larger than your wrist and your gold.
Now its a case of keeping the fire going so that heat goes right deep into that refactor layer ... Your thermal mass. 2 hours with my oven and the heat its through the the insulation layer. The heat takes time to get into the mass of the oven but that character is important as it gives heat back slowly as well so you have a bank of heat over a long period for baking.
At this point the saturation point its time to spread the coals over the floor and get the heat in there. It's the lowest point and insulated by the ash to a certain extent. Rake it around and keep them coals glowing at this point shovel out the excess ash and coals leaving some in the corner, shut the oven up and let the heat even out.
Open it up and get dome flames licking up the walls and you now have the searing heat you need for a proper pizza. Keep feeding the fire,rack the coals over the cooler floor and you can keep cooking pizza for hours.
Close the oven off with an insulated door and you can use that heat next day if you wish for long baking. It's not a domestic oven you don't just dial the temp in you work with the temps you have. And it's real forgiving, you find yourself cooking things at much higher temps that you recipe recommends and still get moist tender results.
Build you oven to spec,don't over engineer perfection, and spend you efforts on the exterior and outdoor kitchen and you'll be gold I recon
Regards Dave
Ps I'm worried that a San mig will not taste the same as my memories, so I gave it a miss for now. Your offer of trying one (or 2) in there home environment fresh is tempting. But life gets in the road and I can't see myself clear at this time to be able to come up. But it's not a flat No well see what happens.
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  #293  
Old 01-18-2014, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Gudday again Lancer
As you know I live in the sub tropics. Not as close to to equator as yourself but close enough to the Tropic of Capricorn to still be hot and humid. Palms abound ,in fact to have that tropical look you have to put up with clearing the dead fronds constantly.
The WFO comes in handy for burning those suckers. Part of any oven heat up involves burning the local fuel. Doesn't smell like your favored hardwood, produces heaps of ash, but don't those things burn!
All palms have an oil content so they burn hot real fast. I rid the place of the excess golden cane and palm fronds at every firing.
I finish with my " good wood" to have the nice smells in the oven . But heats is heat and the palm fronds certainly provide that.
Regards dave
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  #294  
Old 01-18-2014, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
Got an idea...

I've seen how the floor can get too hot and burn the crust. What if I had air vents from the area of the door running under the bricks to where the fire is. The brick floor could be supported underneath by bricks on their side letting air through under the floor. The updraft of the fire would pull cooler air from the door under the floor keeping it from getting too hot. If the floor were not hot enough then the air vent entrance could be partially blocked with a brick. If the air passage were completely cut off the air space would just be more insulation. One thing that concerns me is cleaning out the ash from under.

Thoughts?
For the first pie, take a natural bristle brush on a long handle, and dip it into water. Give it a shake, then gently sweep the floor a couple times. It will take the 'sting' out of the brick...then make sure you keep the pie in the same place as you turn it.

It takes a least a few firings to dial in how your oven behaves, and they are all different.

I think you will have a headache managing a cavity under the floor.
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  #295  
Old 01-19-2014, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

You guys are great!

cobbler, SanMig is a good beer for the tropics as you know. If you got some at a place with a large Filipino community it should be fresh, lots of turnover, and taste good. Remember, best served hot, as in the weather, frosty for the beer. :b: Another good beer here now is Red Horse, its strong and tastes good too. Ever had one?

Glad to hear about the palm fronds. I'm sure they'll end up pressed into the rice husk fuel bricks I hope to make. :b:

stonecutter, that process of cooling the floor by making steam is what attracted me to finding an alternate cooling method. I was even thinking of using a hand held sprayer set on fan to put a light spray on the floor without wearing out mop heads. "Managing a cavity under the floor" is already giving me headaches. Can't figure that one out. Plus there would have to be air vents under the fire. (Add a blower?) The ash that falls through could be removed with a purpose built tool in the shape of the cavity, or tunnel, and mounted on a long stick. Lots to think about, including forgetting the thing.

Have to give it some more thought, consider what you guys suggest.

Another question if you guys will... I've seen the first row of bricks set standing up. I assume this is to raise the dome a bit? Does a raised dome cool the floor in your estimation?

I've come up with a plan for forming the onion dome. Once the oven dome is done, and we're stopped now short of starting the brick floor, its t h e n time for the onion. Set up four pieces of plywood set on the 4' end, spaced evenly around the round table at the height of the floor. An 8' side up against the floor and the other away. Then draw onions on one until we get it right. Cut out the onion and copy on to the other 3 plywood pieces. Then take black flexible plumbing pipe and join the plywood together, making a series of perfect circles which will define the shape of the onion in space. I'm not going to try to set forms in this shape but rather throw ref mortar a bit at a time and letting it dry as we go. The black flex pipe will be the pattern. When finished it can be smoothed a bit and tile pieces added to make a mosaic.

So as it goes up there will be a growing cavity between the brick oven dome and the onion, a roughly 12" void. That we'll fill with perlite all the way up. There will be no connection between the brick and onion dome, all insulation.

The lava rocks I'll use as insulator for the rocket stoves. At least that's what I'm telling the wife. Remember they float, could build a boat out of them.

Last edited by Lancer; 01-19-2014 at 01:05 AM.
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  #296  
Old 01-19-2014, 05:10 AM
stonecutter's Avatar
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
stonecutter, that process of cooling the floor by making steam is what attracted me to finding an alternate cooling method. I was even thinking of using a hand held sprayer set on fan to put a light spray on the floor without wearing out mop heads. "Managing a cavity under the floor" is already giving me headaches. Can't figure that one out. Plus there would have to be air vents under the fire. (Add a blower?) The ash that falls through could be removed with a purpose built tool in the shape of the cavity, or tunnel, and mounted on a long stick. Lots to think about, including forgetting the thing.

Have to give it some more thought, consider what you guys suggest.

Another question if you guys will... I've seen the first row of bricks set standing up. I assume this is to raise the dome a bit? Does a raised dome cool the floor in your estimation?
I would not recommend spraying water into the oven at all. The brush is only damp when swept into the oven, and I have used the same brush since July.

The soldier course causes the radius of the dome to spring from a higher point, which creates more room along the edges, and ( as in the case of Neapolitan ovens) sets up the first dome course to clear the extrados of the oven opening arch.

A tall hemispherical dome won't recharge the floor through convection as fast as a lower elliptical dome, but shape is only one factor that effects how the floor performs. High Conductivity of the floor material may be the most common cause for burnt bottom.
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  #297  
Old 01-19-2014, 03:56 PM
Journeyman
 
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Thanks for the info stonecutter, you are a great one for bouncing ideas around. I want all the floor space I can get so the soldier course will likely be upright.
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  #298  
Old 01-22-2014, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Gudday Lancer

Included is a link you might want to read in regards to cooking floor thickness.
Its by James who started and developed Forno Bravo

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/43/m...html#post71144 (My Cast Refractory Oven Build)

and another

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/43/m...html#post71470 (My Cast Refractory Oven Build)

Regards Dave
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Last edited by cobblerdave; 01-22-2014 at 12:50 PM. Reason: add another link
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  #299  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Thanks amigo. I've decided to forget the under floor tunnel. See, I listen!

Great info on the floor. Mine is supported structurally by lava rocks with perlite filling in the space between. There is a total of 9" insulation under the (coming) brick. I'm sure the lava rock isn't the best insulator but it does also support the brick floor. The rest of the way up it will be 100% perlite.

Weather is finally starting to clear a bit so hopefully work can resume.

Last edited by Lancer; 01-23-2014 at 12:08 AM.
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  #300  
Old 01-23-2014, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Lancer's Philippine Build, Close to Australia Anyhoo...

Gudday lancer
I'm sure you have the insulation covered... that's great.
But the point I was making was the thickness of the floor. There has been a few ovens of recent that have gone overboard with the mass.
As Jamie's pointed out 70 mm 3 1/2 ins was more than enough for a commercial used oven . That's the general thickness of a house brick laid on its thin side lay it on the thicker and its 115mm or 4 1/2 in which is too thick to not only bring up to temp but to maintain it.
What size dome are you planning by the way?
Regards dave
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