#11  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:01 PM
Serf
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 8
Default Re: finding lime

Seth, did you find Type-S or Hydrated Lime at a feed store? I found some Type-S online through a pool company but the shipping is the killer. All of the online places that I found it is $30 -$50 for the shipping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Hensel View Post
I'm in Riverview, FL and finally found some at the local feed store. 50lb was less than $10.00. Coloroc in Oldsmar told me they couldn't source it. This stuff comes from Alabama.
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  #12  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:13 AM
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 105
Default Re: finding lime

I'm in SC. this link was the only place I found that was close. As previously stated, the shipping kills. I went with it because I wanted all the right material for my build and didn't want to take any chances with the ratios although from reading other postings there is a little flexability.

California Silica 120387 50 LB Chemstar Type "S" Lime Star-Pool

Steven
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  #13  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:58 AM
Serf
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 4
Default Re: finding lime

Remingtion Specialty Feed on 301 sells type N hydrated lime. This is manufactured by Cheney Lime and Cement in Allgood, AL.

The difference betweem Type S (special) and type N (normal) lime is the possible presence of MgO (Magnesium Oxide). MgO converts to MG(OH)2 (Magnesium Hydroxide) in the presence of water, over time. Put that in a water suspension and you have Milk of Magnesia.....but I digress.

1% of MgO will take up 2% more space when converted to Mg(OH)2. This can wreak havoc with precision industrial processes such as autoclaved air-entrained brick. Not a big issue with us oven builders.

Another difference between Type N and Type S is the water retension spec. 75% for N and 85% for S. Not significant for our usage.

Crude Hydrated lime has been used successfully for at least two millenia to make ovens. I used it in my 48 inch Neapolitan which fires to over a thousand degrees (without a crack BTW). The Type N lime from Cheney is a very uniform product.

A bigger deal, in my very limited experience is the grit size of the sand you use and the ambient temperature during cure. I work in the evening here in Florida so the initial cure happens as the atmosphere is cooling.

Good luck with your build. If I can help, just PM me.
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  #14  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:06 AM
Serf
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 8
Default Re: finding lime

When you mention crude hydrated lime. Is that the agriculture lime that ace and some other locations sell. I've made 20-30 calls and everybody from contractors and distributors keep telling me that it isn't used in this area so nobody stocks it. I called home depot corporate and the stopped carrying it. That is the type-s lime.
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  #15  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:34 AM
Serf
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 4
Default Re: finding lime

Ag lime is Calcium Carbonate. What we are looking for is Calcium Hydroxide. You do not need type S lime. Type N (normal) is perfect.

Try Palmer Feed Store 912 W. Church St.
PalmerFeedStore | Our Products

They have 50lb bags of hydrated lime for $14.95

I have no business or other connection to Palmer Feed Store. They were just the first such business I contacted.

Good luck!

Seth

Last edited by Seth Hensel; 05-30-2012 at 08:35 AM. Reason: Additional info
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  #16  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:37 AM
Tscarborough's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ausitn
Posts: 2,989
Default Re: finding lime

That is agricultural, i.e. hydrated lime. Hydrated lime is difficult to fully slake naturally. For laying a rock wall in the garden, no problem.

Type S lime is double hydrated, usually done in an autoclave to get full hydration of the magnesium component. It slakes easily, i.e. it is usable as is.

Type N can be used, but it should be slaked prior to use.
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  #17  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:28 AM
Serf
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 4
Default Re: finding lime

This from the National Lime Association website FAQ:

Q: Is aglime the same as lime?

A: The term agricultural lime, or "aglime," usually refers to crushed limestone. Limestone (calcium carbonate) is not the same as hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide).


And this:

Q: What are the differences between Type N, NA, S, & SA hydrated lime used for mortar and other building applications?

A:
Hydrated limes used in building applications are divided into four types, as described in ASTM Standard Specification C 207 (Hydrated Lime for Masonry Purposes):
•Type N – normal hydrated lime
•Type NA – normal air-entraining hydrated lime
•Type S – special hydrated lime
•Type SA – special air-entraining hydrated lime
Types S and SA are differentiated from Types N and NA principally by the unhydrated oxide content and their water retention value. Type S must meet a water retention value of 85%, while Type N hydrate lime must have a water retention value of 75%. No distinction is made based on the nature and source of limestone.

That 10% difference in water retention value might make it worth slaking if you are using Type N. I didn't and it worked fine. Maybe I just got lucky. If you have any doubts, go with Tscarborough's recommendation. I've been reading his posts for years and he clearly knows what he is doing.

Last edited by Seth Hensel; 05-30-2012 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Clarify
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  #18  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:11 PM
Tscarborough's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ausitn
Posts: 2,989
Default Re: finding lime

Agricultural lime is usually not just crushed limestone, it is calcined (burnt) then milled to a high degree (and sometimes pressed into pellets). This does give it some degree of desirable properties for mortar as a plasticizer, giving a better bond strength and workability, but it does not provide any hydraulic or cementious properties when used in mortar.

Type S (or N) is limestone that is calcined, autoclaved, then milled and it will provide various degrees of hydraulic and cementious properties when used in a mortar, a well as working as a plasticizer.

This matters for a refractory mortar more than for a normal mortar because when the portland cement paste in the matrix fails at high temperatures, the cementious properties of the lime and fireclay will maintain the integrity of the mortar, more or less.

Refractory cements like Heatstop are based on an entirely different type of chemistry.
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