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  #31  
Old 03-17-2013, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

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Originally Posted by wotavidone View Post
Anyone out there prepared to build an oven with 6:1:1:1 and report back on performance?
The thing that isn't covered by any standard is the heat performance of a portland cement based mortar. It isn't a refractory, and we are just trying to get by with it.
If, as is often put forward on this forum, the portland cement burns out, we are back to 4:1 aggregate to cementitous material. Not such a strong mix.
I don't get the 4:1 thing, because clay is cementitous. It was used as an early mortar which is still used in parts of the world. I correspond with a Mason in Tanzania that builds cross vault ceilings with handmade brick, using clay mixed with sand as the mortar. The thing most people don't understand is the need to match mortar strength to the unit installed. I didn't see anything in the early posts suggesting that the recommended,and often used 3:1:1:1 is a bad mix design, only that it is rich.
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  #32  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

Stonecutter, our friend in Tanzania is using an iron rich silicious clay which has strong hydraulic properties. Fire clay is fired and ground high aluminum content clay with little to no hydraulic properties.
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  #33  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here are some pictures. On the left, 6:1:1:1 , on the right 3:1:1:1. I used a 1/2 cup as the unit of measure.



The lean mix took 1-1/2 cups of water, the rich 1-1/4.

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  #34  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

Both are workable and sticky, but as you can see from the joint picture, the rich was a lot more messy.





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Old 03-17-2013, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

Lean mix:



Rich mix:



I made 2 samples in plastic cups to play with after they set (and to see how fast they set).

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  #36  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

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Stonecutter, our friend in Tanzania is using an iron rich silicious clay which has strong hydraulic properties. Fire clay is fired and ground high aluminum content clay with little to no hydraulic properties.
Interesting..I am going to talk to Erik further about this.

I still wouldn't consider clay as an aggregate but as a binder...whether it is cementitious in nature or not.
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  #37  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:33 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

My hands are already dirty, so I will make a 3:1 fireclay mix too to see if it will hold together.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:49 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

Back when I started in the industry, 20 odd years ago, most masons would take fireclay and add enough water to make a thick slurry (no aggregate), about like pancake batter, and just dip the firebrick into the mix to lay up fireplaces. I have seen some of those fireplaces and they are in good shape 5, 10, 20, or 100 years later, but! the joints are 1/16--1/8th inch, and it is very easy to take them apart.

3:1 fireclay:




It took 1 cup water to get a workable mix, but it was plenty sticky:

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Old 03-17-2013, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

It seems workable, I just question the ultimate bond strength:





And I made another sample cup to play with later:

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: 3:1:1:1

Gudday all
Have been watching this with interest. Can I bring up one point , it was my understanding that the Portland cement content was only there for the initial hold and that it would eventually break down under the heat produced by the oven leaving the lime to provide the "long term glue".
If I could suggest Tscarborought "cooking" the samples in a WFO?
By the way Tscarborought I think everyone appreciates you willingness to produce the samples and lead this discussion

Regards Dave
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