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  #11  
Old 05-23-2013, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

I agree with all above, the oven will never get hot enough unless you have a massive fire.
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  #12  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith In Virginia View Post
I have been doing a lot of research on white ovens. Now this is just a guess on my part but I think the oven will get plenty hot. I saw a design very similar I'll see if I can't find it again...but this guy had his firebox directly under the oven floor like the picture you showed. Apparently the floor got so hot that he needed to cook on grates to keep his bread from burning.

The second thing you need to consider is cleaning. White ovens are filthy things when it comes to buildup in the heating chambers...so you need good access to them to scrape out the buildup.

I'll look for that oven

Faith

Edit found the oven The Oven of Philip Baker - Pyromasse
That is a interesting link, Faith. The oven there is built over a furnace though...big difference between the heat characteristics of that one and a FP box.
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  #13  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:39 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

This is a coal oven at Frank Pepe's in New Haven, CT. You can see the coal chamber on the right, this is were the heat comes from. It works like a furnace...similar to the one in Faiths link but direct fired.



But, in Pepe's oven, there is heat from a pile of hot coals in the oven. They cook a lot of pizza, so this is done to keep the floor charged.




Keystone, this isn't being done to shoot down your design, just show what it takes to get an oven hot enough if your fire isn't in the oven chamber itself.
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Last edited by stonecutter; 05-23-2013 at 08:08 PM. Reason: re-word
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

Guess I was looking at this from different angle. I did not see the fire box being a fireplace

That would suck trying to cook a pizza with a raging fire at your knees.

I could be totally off here and just speculating, but I see that oven design as a cooking surface within a wood stove/ furnace. I'm thinking it would act like a dutch oven with a door.

I still think the design could work but that is just a guess. I would express my concerns with the owner and talk him into building that oven at his house to test the workings of that design.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:54 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

Fair enough. I looked at the drawing again, it isn't clear if that is a FP either...I just made an assumption that it was. Anyway, it will work if the fire chamber is like a furnace and it will be an interesting project for sure.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

Cool picture and oven at Frank Pepe's. I can see where they would need to have coals in that oven to keep the floor charged. Where in a black oven the heating moves from in to out (instant heat)... this oven heats out to in. So the time it would take to transfer that heat through the brick to the cooking chamber would take a while. Not efficient for a busy pizza place.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

It is truly great there, and one of the best around. I use to live about 45 minutes north of the New Haven location, and whenever we go back to CT we try to go there.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

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Originally Posted by stonecutter View Post
Fair enough. I looked at the drawing again, it isn't clear if that is a FP either...I just made an assumption that it was. Anyway, it will work if the fire chamber is like a furnace and it will be an interesting project for sure.
What do you base this on? The Pepe's oven you reference is a black oven, the door on the right is simply to access the coal pile on the right hand side of the oven chamber. Coal ovens do require a grate for airflow, and the design of a classic coal oven is a bit different then a classic wood oven, but the fire is still in the chamber. The other oven referenced here has a glaring flaw, the heat is so unbalanced you cannot even bake on the hearth. To me that oven is worthless.

People have been trying to design a bottom heat only wood fired pizza oven that can produce a balanced bake at Neapolitan temperatures as long as I have been interested in pizza ovens, probably much longer. Nobody has. A white oven multiplies challenge 10 fold. That is a huge undertaking. You might as well offer to build him a space shuttle in his backyard.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

A white oven for Neapolitan pizza would involve a very thin refractory shell with something like gas jets hitting the floor, the sides and the top. It could be done, certainly, but not practically or efficiently.

It is hard to argue against thousands of years of empirical research and development when dealing with something as simple and basic as an oven.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Will this design work?

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Originally Posted by shuboyje View Post
What do you base this on?
To clarify, I never said Pepe's oven wasn't a black oven, and pointed out that the coals were in the oven camber. I did made the mistake of comparing it to the one in the link, which has a separate fire chamber. The pictures just illustrate the amount of effort it would take to heat a massive amount of masonry. All the reasons have already been mentioned.

My suggestion that a design like that could work would be contingent on getting all the masonry around the oven to temperature and maintaining that heat....which is exactly how masonry heaters function.

It takes creative engineering and masonry know-how to make an indirect fire design function and that is beyond the ability of casual oven builders. And though I agree that it probably would not reach as high of temps as direct firing, I don't think it is an impossible task. It would be more like a bake oven than a true pizza oven. Sorry for the confusion, I will re-word that post differently.
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