#11  
Old 12-07-2006, 01:24 AM
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These oven producers cast floor and dome pieces for a living -- including mixing custom refractories. Think how many times they messed it up before they got it right and went into production (30 years ago). I wouldn't try it myself.
James
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  #12  
Old 12-07-2006, 09:17 AM
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I still dont understand this insulating floor either? My previous oven I used 2.5 inches vermiculite concrete placed inside the 6 inch refractory concrete with the bricks directly over the concrete slab. I am trying to figure out what type of insulation you are talking about? Let me know, thanks!
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2006, 02:38 PM
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Artigiano,

Check out this photo journal. I think it might make the hearth layers question more clear.

http://www.fornobravo.com/commercial..._install1.html

Also, here is a postings here that might help.

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=693 (Hearth Design Philosophy)

Last, here is a graphic from the FB installation guides,

Hope this helps.

Janes
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  #14  
Old 12-08-2006, 09:40 AM
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where can this type of insulation tile be purchased? Is it unhelathy to have loose vermiculite poured in the dome?
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  #15  
Old 12-08-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artigiano View Post
where can this type of insulation tile be purchased?
Any refractory dealer will have some sort of insulation board. I used Insblock19, made by Harbison-Walker, which I got cheap on eBay. Forno bravo sells the excellent super-isol.

Quote:
Is it unhelathy to have loose vermiculite poured in the dome?
Not at all. House style enclosured are designed to be filled with loose vermiculite. It's asbestos free, inert, and not considered a health hazard. I would be careful about any kind of dust in the lungs, though.
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  #16  
Old 12-08-2006, 01:08 PM
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would 2.5 - 3 inches of vermiculite concrete in the hearh slap be just as efficient or at least close to the insulation board? Also, how many inches should i leave to be filled between the dome and outer walls. My last oven I only left a couple inches and I have some cracks in the outer wall bricks. Is this due to the heat?
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  #17  
Old 12-08-2006, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artigiano View Post
would 2.5 - 3 inches of vermiculite concrete in the hearh slap be just as efficient or at least close to the insulation board?
The insulation board is significantly better as far as insulating properties, but there are lot's of us here who have constructed with vermiculite or perlite concrete and have a very good home oven. I think for "always on" commercial use you would certainly want the superior insulation of insulation board, but for an oven used 1-2x/week both are options. If you are trying to extend the length of your retained heat baking time you might have better success with insulating board, but other issues such as preheat time and thermal mass affect this more.

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Originally Posted by artigiano View Post
Also, how many inches should i leave to be filled between the dome and outer walls.
The general recommendation is six inches of loose filled perlite/vermiculite is ideal, or replace that with 1 inch ceramic fiber insulating blanket for 2 inches of loose fill (1 inch blanket plus 4 inches loose fill should be similar to 6 inches loose fill). As James has pointed out in the past, the insulating blanket is really better, as it "stops" the heat closer to the refractory layer, but again, either is very useable for the home oven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artigiano View Post
My last oven I only left a couple inches and I have some cracks in the outer wall bricks. Is this due to the heat?
I don't know, were the bricks getting hot? I would imagine even a couple inches dropped the translated heat enough that conventional bricks shouldn't be prone to cracking, but if they got wet and then also quite hot at time that might have done it.
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  #18  
Old 12-13-2006, 07:57 AM
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Default Floor Tiles vs. Bricks

I installed a Casa 100 which of course has the "interior" floor tiles (surrounded by the dome with the dome resting on the insulating slab. I had a mason assisting me and he did the actual setting of the floor tiles. They are pretty smooth but I have to comment that ANY unevenness in the floor tiles will lead to angst. I will be moving in about three years and will definitely build another oven. I am toying with building a Pompei. However, I have to say that concern for getting the floor bricks even is a significant concern of mine. I am surprised more home builders who use brick don't express more encouragement of being damn sure the bricks are smooth for I can envision that as a major headache!

As bread is one of my major interests, I am particularly concerned with heat retention also. I like the "dome over" or "dome surround" approach of the Casa oven as it gives, I think, a better heat seal to the oven.(though I acknowledge that is somewhat speculative. Were I to build a Pompei I would probably cut the floor bricks. I like that concept.

As an aside one area where I know my oven is "weak" is that I oversized the slab on which the oven sits and one of the interesting phenomena of an oversized slab is that it sucks heat out of the floor. My next oven will have an insulating slab that is barely big enough for the oven and insulating layers in order to minimize heat loss to the slab. (NOTE: this is not a biggie - this is a fine detail, but...one that others who want the most efficient oven possible might find useful.
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  #19  
Old 12-13-2006, 08:23 AM
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Artigiano,

I am pretty sure you are building a commerical oven. Is that right?

If you are building an "always-on" oven, I would recommend seriously insulating the top and bottom. If the cost of the modern high-efficiency insulators is an issue, then at least use serious layers of vermiculite under and around the oven. The Modena we sell as 6" of high tech insulation undernearth and 4-8" of high tech insulation above -- to keep the walls cool when you cook.

There are a handful of good reasons why this is important. You don't want to heat up your kitchen; you don't want to have to buy twice as much wood; you don't want to worry about your oven giving up heat in the middle of dinner; and you don't want to have to worry about re-heat times every day.

We have had postings and emails from restaurant owners and chefs asking what they can do about their under-insulated oven, and what a pain it is.

So, you have the opportunity to get it right -- from the get go.

Jay, did I say "nice bread photos" yet? You bread looks great. How did it taste?

James
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  #20  
Old 12-16-2006, 12:34 PM
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Thanks James,

You read me like a book... you are correct I am planning on designing and at least having a hand in the building of a commercial oven, its kind of a dream I have. It may be a while yet, but I am working away on it. The vermiculite is easily accesesible to me and sounds more cost effective. I can definately put 6-8 inches between and above the dome. As for under the floor tiles I was thinking I should be around 4 inches inside the refractory slab. I would use a round form inside the form for the entire slab. What do you think? Is this well enough insulated, I am very open to anything you guys can advise me on. Yes, I have also been advised never to build my own commercial oven, but thats advice I am probably not going to take so anything besides that would be very nice. Should the vermiculite around the dome be loose? What mix ratio would you suggest inside the slab? How many inches of just refractory concrete should I leave under the floor tiles? I have found 3" tiles but you have informed me that this is too thick. In contrast with the brick I thought it would be okay.. but if you still think they are wrong I will do some more searching. I am planning to clad the bricks with 2.5" refractory concrete around the dome. I have been tinkering with this for a while.. well just about anything when it comes to traditional pizza. I finally got my dough right, after a year of trial and error and a lot of research (yes, even dough took a while to research). Now, since I can't get fresh mozzarella curd on the west coast to make fresh mozzarella, I am in the trial runs of making the curd for the stretching process from milk. I have had moderate success, but I am determined to get it right. I have been using bacterial cultures and enzymes coming from back east to curd the milk for the mozarella. I just have to make sure its going to make sense for me to do it this way and have to make sure the process is not going to take too much of my time.
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