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-   -   Marcel's Pompeii Oven photos Part 4 (http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f21/marcels-pompeii-oven-photos-part-4-a-268.html)

Marcel 10-03-2005 09:19 AM

Marcel's Pompeii Oven photos Part 4
 
# 44

(M) Here follow 4 more images which can also be seen with a total of 57 at

http://photobucket.com/albums/a318/marceld/?start=40


(M) # 53 shows that I cut one of the vanes so that I could get the flat iron as close to the dome as possible. Jim Hatch encouraged me to have the flat iron as the first support for the bricks above an arch not yet built. The cut piece of pink styrofoam is laying on top of a refractory morter filled angle iron. Luis was concerned that leaving the angle iron open, in the pup-tent orientation, i.e. ^would invite a problem with smoke turbulance, so I filled it. A later image will show the angle iron in right front of the first flat iron. Because I was careless in setting one of my rings, I needed to use the angle iron as a pup-tent to support the bricks which were pretty much haning over the flat iron.

IMG]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/marceld/53flatironandfilledangleiron.jpg[/IMG]

(M) # 54 shows a close up of the flat iron, but because of the angle of the bricks it supports, and the mortar I wedged above it, it appears to be an angle iron. (<55> snipped)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...roncloseup.jpg

(M) # 56 is a close up of that same section but now with the angle iron in the foreground, hiding the flat iron behind it. Because the angle iron is in ^ orientation, you may not recognize it as angle iron.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...ortarwedge.jpg

(M) # 57 shows "The Power of Positive Thinking". I believe that with the right attitude, bricks can defy the law of gravity and be supported on only a column of air (with a little emotional support from balloons) but the difficulty I had was getting the bricks to have the right attitude, lierally, and metaphorically. ;)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...portbricks.jpg

(M) It took a bit of finesse to balance how far to blow up the balloons, and where to place them between the vanes without popping them but they actually provided the balance of support for the rings shown. I have yet to see if they will work as I go higher.

(M) I also poured styrofoam "peanuts" on the cooking floor to catch the inevitable dollop of mortar that fell from my trowel.

(M) Now to try David and Paul's transfer of images from an external source, system:

Ciao,

Marcel

Marcel 10-03-2005 09:28 AM

Missing image resubmitted
 
(M) This is a resubmit of both text and image from my last post:

==============================================

(M) # 53 shows that I cut one of the vanes so that I could get the flat iron as close to the dome as possible. Jim Hatch encouraged me to have the flat iron as the first support for the bricks above an arch not yet built. The cut piece of pink styrofoam is laying on top of a refractory morter filled angle iron. Luis was concerned that leaving the angle iron open, in the pup-tent orientation, i.e. ^would invite a problem with smoke turbulance, so I filled it. A later image will show the angle iron in right front of the first flat iron. Because I was careless in setting one of my rings, I needed to use the angle iron as a pup-tent to support the bricks which were pretty much haning over the flat iron.

==================================================

(M) On the preceding post, I lost a [ so the image was not viewable. I'll try that again for the above description of image #53:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...dangleiron.jpg

dmun 10-03-2005 12:21 PM

The triangular angle iron support should be very strong. You had talked about this before, but I didn't understand until I saw it. A good idea, as are the baloons!

Good work!

Bob C 10-03-2005 12:33 PM

Marcel,

you are doing a great job...save some balloons for your first "pizza party"

Bob C

paulages 10-03-2005 04:51 PM

yeah, the balloon idea is brilliant!

Les 10-03-2005 10:42 PM

I monitor this site for information on building my oven, this forum and participants have been excellent, but I may have missed a tread - what exactly are the balloons for? I do like your choice of color :-)

Les...

james 10-03-2005 11:43 PM

Ciao Marcello,

Io devo chiedere. The balloons are great, and I hope they work, but I have to ask -- is there a code behind the colors? :-) Let us know how they work.

More seriously, the oven looks great. I like the herringbone cooking floor, and the tri-angled angle iron looks good.

Are the vent walls dry stacked and built into the dome? I am having trouble visualizing the intersection between the oven chamber wall and opening, and the vent walls.

James

Marcel 10-04-2005 09:09 AM

The Hindenburg will fly once more!
 
#45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Dale
I monitor this site for information on building my oven, this forum and participants have been excellent, but I may have missed a tread - what exactly are the balloons for? I do like your choice of color :-)

Les...

(M) The balloons are only a prototype for the real ones which will help me to move the dome to a new location. My Math. indicates that when filled with Helium ( I would caution against using Hydrogen as we all know what happened to the Hindenburg :eek:) When the floating dome is guided by ropes, I will be able to move it as far as I have the strength to maintain my feet on the ground. Now Jim Hatch and David, both excellent mathematicians, have cautioned me about using too much Helium lest I get hoisted by my own petard, but I have confidence in my calculations. :p

(M) The balloons ancillary function was to help prevent the bricks from falling between the vanes. As you add "concentric" circles or courses, the bricks need to attain an increasing pitch to ultimately complete a 1/2 circumference at the top. Smarter builders than I, e.g. Paul, and Luis, used 16 vanes or more. With that many vanes they were able to avoid any gaps so large that the bricks would fall through. If I were to start again I would *not* use the ballons but the 16 vanes. The ballons are untested and inherently unreliable. I tried to fudge on some sloppy vane cutting.

(M) If I were to give a Newbie any advice, one of the caveats would be to exercise real care in the cutting of the vanes so that they all meet the circumference you draw on your hearth brick floor. The difficulty for me was that after I made two almost identical interlocking vanes, the subsequent vanes had to have their vertical edges chamfered in order to attach to the 2 interlocking vanes with enough surface contact.

(M) Les, there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat, and mine is only an after the fact experiment. The step by step instructions have the builder use no vanes so s/he can see the inside of the dome and check for allignment and falling mortar. But the unsupported course will work only up to a point. At that point (I believe it would be around the 6th course) the bricks are pitched so steeply that Jim and James used a thin disk of wood, supported from the inside by a vertical 2"x2" ?

(M) Some builders are said to have used sand as support but I can't find any photos to "support" that.

(M) I'll try to insert Paul's URL and perhaps also that of Luis Arevalo. That's the way you want to go.

(M) Les, click on these URLs to go to the place in the forum where Paul and Luis shows us their veins:

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/show...5&page=6&pp=10

and

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f21/polystyrene-vanes-dome-modelling-first-message-199.html

(M) As to my choice of color, should I worry that you like pink?

================================================== ==

James wrote:

Ciao Marcello,

Io devo chiedere. The balloons are great, and I hope they work, but I have to ask -- is there a code behind the colors? :-)

(M) Yes, all the whites come together for the neutral. I had no blacks for the hot lines so I need to paint the hot leads black. I'm afraid to do that though because the paint may errode the rubber and release the hydrogen. :(


(J) Let us know how they work.

(M) I will. I have doubt that they will hold up against all the rubbing next to sharp bricks.

More seriously, the oven looks great.

(M) You mean you were joking??? :mad:

I like the herringbone cooking floor, and the tri-angled angle iron looks good.

(M) "Looks aren't everything."

Are the vent walls dry stacked and built into the dome?

(M) I'm unsure how to answer this. If by "vent walls" you mean the 5 "sleeping" soldiers on either side of the oven entrance, they were dry stacked in order to maintain the 12- 1/2" height you recommend. Mortar between them would have raised their height too much. I hope that back filling the rear gap with mortar will be strong enough to resist lateral pressure. As far as vertical pressure, there is of course no worry.

(J) I am having trouble visualizing the intersection between the oven chamber wall and opening, and the vent walls.

(M) Me too, and I'm serious! It should be obvious that I am no engineer. I work to what plan I think will be successful and then, when I find I overlooked some critical point, I try to fudge. I'm still perusing various vent options. One has me trying to build a nice arch a la Paul or Luis but that would require another set of sleeping soldiers to allow me enough space for the chimney vent and I'd like to maintain some uncovered loading area. I could also buy 1 foot long clay liners that are 8" x 8". In that scenario I would need to lay down another piece of flat iron to support those clay liners over the 20" gap. Anyone who has any suggestions is sincerely encouraged to present them. I only got this far through the help of this forum's community.

James
__________________
Forno Bravo

Ciao,

Marcel

P.S. Thanks, also to Paul, Demon, and Bob C. for your enthusiastic support but let's hold the applause until the final act.

Les 10-04-2005 10:25 AM

Marcel - thanks for the response. Your use of balloons had me intrigued. I suggest that you use ear plugs when you set the bricks :-)

I have seen the use of the veins for support and I think that is the way to go. I'm leaning towards building the frame out of wood and using a thin veneer (such as a door skin) to cover it. There will be no need to remove it because it will become part of my first fires.

As far as pink - my wife buys my clothes, I'm good with it.

aikitarik 10-04-2005 11:32 AM

Nice work, Marcel!
 
Seeing your work, I feel like such a hack. But a HAPPY hack! :D

We finished our dome this weekend, and we have lots of gaps on the inside (filled with mortar) despite cutting EVERY brick at least 5 times to taper it. Pics will follow tonight, but you can see a few at my last post/link (I'm still using yahoo).

The issue was, we tapered the bricks TOO much until we reached the top of the dome, and so introduced signifcant gaps from row 3. However, the dome is SNUG and I was able to put my weight on it (accidentally the first time) even before I was done closing the dome. The keystone was so snug that I was afraid I was going to collapse my doorway arch.

With respect to the forms, we used only a cross of foam (got too lazy to build to the cake idea) and I found that using a rubber mallet and soaking the bricks in water created enough adhesion that I never needed more forms, even when I got up to chains 10-14.

Our interior is more jagged than I wanted, but it recalls the look of some authentic Roman oven interiors I remember in the middle east. What matters is.. will it hold? :eek:

Tarik


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