#11  
Old 10-02-2007, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: white oven vs black oven

Can you tell us if the white oven or the french version ever even get hot enough for the proper pizza baking temps?
> the guellard ovens super heat the chamber, when fired it literally looks like a flame thrower shooting the flame across the hearth. This "collar" can be rotated from right to left at different times during the fire so flames hit different areas of the chamber.

I suppose if you really want to get technical the white ovens can be brought to a temp to do decent pizzas. the result would be similar to a gas deck oven with stones that many pizza shops still use and produce good pizza. However the fuel and process necessary to do so and maintain that temp is prohibitive for home use compared to traditional Pompeii style oven. You are looking at several hours of heat up as apposed to an hour or so, by that time it becomes a chore instead of fun. These oven work in a commercial environment because the temp is always several hundred degrees and firing is merely bringing it back up to baking temp.
In my opinion the ovens were not designed with retained at the top of the list as other designs of that era were, but the masonry still holds much heat from the previous bakes.

Again tec speaking you could make the oven thin walled enough to heat up faster.
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  #12  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: white oven vs black oven

Uno gives a very good answer and I will add one additional aspect. The retained heat masonry oven with a fire inside heats in 3 ways, conductive, convective and radiant. The white oven will heat with conductive and convective but it lacks on the radiant heat because there is no active flame in the oven chamber. One could probably make some excellent pizzas in the very early high heat stage as many suspect the early retained heat bakers used to do to use up some of the heat before they began baking bread.
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Dutch
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  #13  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: white oven vs black oven

Dutch-

In no way did I mean to answer on your behalf I was here an thought I would answer, looking at it now I realize it was addressed to you, sorry.

%$#@ loud mouth Italians
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Old 10-02-2007, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: white oven vs black oven

Uno
No sensitivity here! I am just happy we have so many points of view and areas of expertise. All of us have so much to contribute we should all speak up when so inclined. I would also love to hear of your ideas with regard to your "guellard" oven. Something I have been interested in for some time but, I don't think I have the ability to construct one. I have nearly finished the repointing of a building that may become our woodfired bakery or pizzeria. Building around 100 years old. Once exterior pointing is done then I have to go upstairs and deal with 3 old coal fireplaces that used to heat the living quarters up there...should be fun...there are no flue tiles and it seriouisly deteriorated the both the internal and external masonry. It was a solid brick wall...brick footings...3 ply wall for the first floor and then 2 ply upstairs...almost no cement in the mixture...almost entirely lime and sand.
Quite a challenge!
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Dutch
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: white oven vs black oven

No sensitivity here!
>I'm glad thanks.

I would also love to hear of your ideas with regard to your "guellard" oven. Something I have been interested in for some time but, I don't think I have the ability to construct one.
>I didn't mean to imply I was building the guellard design, nope not for me. This oven I have designed is a true white oven, flames will never enter the baking chamber. I had my fill of years of building a fire and raking that da@# stuff out only to have to do it again the next morning. My oven was 8x10 so it was a freaking wheel burro of ash every day and the mess and the...I hated it. Nope this one will be much better to control, I can fire it as I need heat, cool it with the vents and I will never have to time my dough for the oven to be just right. For all intensive purposes it will function like a gas deck oven (ok well sort of) but the control is something I need. Using the black oven for breads just added too many variables to the baking process that I cared to deal with. At first they were a challenge and part of the romance of it all then it became a pain in my...well you get the idea.
I have nearly finished the repointing of a building that may become our woodfired bakery or pizzeria. Building around 100 years old. Once exterior pointing is done then I have to go upstairs and deal with 3 old coal fireplaces that used to heat the living quarters up there...should be fun...there are no flue tiles and it seriouisly deteriorated the both the internal and external masonry. It was a solid brick wall...brick footings...3 ply wall for the first floor and then 2 ply upstairs...almost no cement in the mixture...almost entirely lime and sand.
Quite a challenge!
> sounds fun...NOT. It has always been a dream of mine to be "The Italian guy that lives above his bakery" sound like a very nice building. Are you getting any help from your local county or city programs? There are a lot of revitalization programs out there these days, it may help pay some of the bills. Some of these programs are a totally good thing they improve the business district and revive old buildings. Others have so much red tape forget about it.
I did a few re-pointing jobs with my father years and years ago it was the most boring thing I have ever done. But now days the machinery they have is freaking awesome you can do a whole house in a day..not much market for that out here though. I sure do miss all the brick buildings though. Is funny how you grow up around things your parents do and see and then eventually fall in love with the same things..Atleast I think thats where I got my love for masonry. I sometimes wonder was it my family that instilled this love for building and architecture in me or was I just born that way. I could drive around all day and just look at old buildings.

When I was little my father and brother took the coal furnaces out of my grandmothers house and apartments those things had more steel in them than most cars and trucks do today.. what a mess it was I do remember all the cool slag formations though..kinda scary that for decades and decades people heated there homes with this toxic gas..surrounded by asbestos It sure is a different world now.
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  #16  
Old 10-03-2007, 06:41 AM
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Default Re: white oven vs black oven

I'd be interested to hear or see about how you accomplished some of the challenges inherent in that design. I will be building an oven/ovens for this new restaurant/bakery adventure and was considering a retained heat bake oven and possibly separate pizza oven because other things may be cooked in it as well. An oven that performs as you speak of would be a fantastic addition for a bakery or any restaurant for that matter.
It is a pleasure to be part of the forum for just this reason!
Best
Dutch
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