#11  
Old 07-23-2008, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: New Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by karl View Post
Cedar is an oily type of wood and, as you say, should stand the weather quite well (is used in boats)
I would like to stress that wood permanently submerged in the water (especially sea water) will probably last much longer than the same wood in the outdoor condition, going wet and dry and in contact with concrete, make it humid for a long period of time. These conditions are completely different, almost nothing in common - oxygen, types of bacteria, fungus, and so on.

Last edited by dvonk; 07-23-2008 at 08:41 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2008, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: New Design

herrbeckly
Cedar is not a tough wood. It is wimpy wood. It is weather resistant that is why it is used on roofs and siding. I live with cedar, have milled it and used it. If you beef it up...oversize the beams it could work. but don't treat it like strong wood. If you are going to put it in the ground it will rot.
The rot rate depends on the moisture content of the soil. Most applications here are to put the post in a steel saddle then concrete the saddle in place. If its exposed to weather it will last years if treated annually
berryst
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  #13  
Old 07-25-2008, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: New Design

I realize having a great supply of cedar is tempting, but if you really want a long lasting wood to use try cypress. I have 300' of it in my fence out back. It has been in place for 22 yrs and still looks good. If however, you could keep it away from the outdoor elements(rain, etc), then it should last much longer. My son used cypress in his outdoor kitchen as structural beams(2" x 14") They look beautiful and should last his lifetime. One difference of course is our locations. Being in WA is much different than Memphis, TN area. Rainfall, temps, & very hot summers(in Memphis)
Jim Bob
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  #14  
Old 07-25-2008, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: New Design

Thanks to every one for your posts. Very helpful. I realize this is risky, but I think this will work. Let me explain it better.

I have two 3-foot-high brick piers that are on a very well poured foundation. these piers are about 54" long and 15" wide, and they are parallel. I have four angle irons that span the piers at regular intervals.

So I have all of these new cedar 4x4's, 60 inches long. I propose to use these lying across the piers, one up against the next until there is a table top of these beams supported by the piers.

They will be held into place by the four angle irons (two of which are on the outside of the beams.

I will then cover the beams with mortar (will this rot the beams?), lay down one layer of common brick. Then a layer of vermiculite. then the oven floor. All of the weight of the dome will be distributed into the piers anr/or the angle irons. The beams will ony support their own weight and the floor/subfloor combination.

I will then complete the construction of the dome/outerwalls/roof.

Does anyone thing this is completely absurd?

TB
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  #15  
Old 07-25-2008, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: New Design

TB,
I'm all for alternative ideas and recycle, and seeing the variety of WFOs here and elsewhere on the web, I suspect the answer is "yes".

That being said, just why are you going this route? I, like Berryst live in the Pacific Northwest and here cedar (that's red cedar) has gone absolutely bonkers in price. I cannot imagine it has gone down in price elsewhere in the country. The idea you would bury the wood (OK hide or bury from view) and not use it for such things as rustic table legs (given the lengths you mention) or as a table top side to side as you plan with boxed in legs of the same 4 x4 as a prep table escapes me.

What would be wrong with getting "el cheapo" utility grade 2x4's and frame and pour concrete for a base? Or form up and pour your own concrete beams and side stack them like you're planning to do with the cedar, if access to where you want to build the oven is an issue. If cost is the issue how far are you from the batch plant? You can get "overage" really cheap if you have the time and not the money. Lots of alternative things come to mind, so I am curious as to why are you set on using the cedar this way?

Wiley
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  #16  
Old 07-25-2008, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: New Design

I'll be honest,
I don't feel comfortable doing all that work and then finding out that i have badly mixed the concrete, made a mistake with the rebar, or poured it badly. Then the entire WFO is in jeopardy. If I am right about this, then I know that the oven base will be sound and my work on the oven itself is safe. I am just worried about the lifespan of the cedar (free to me), and how to adhere masonry to the surface of the wood (bad effects of mortar?).

Also, I purchased and watched a video about oven building in the South Tirol. I will not name the source of the video here as I believe the producers of it have used this forum inappropriately to sell their video. The video is not a useful source for building a WFO. But it was particularly interesting for me because I have family and deep routes in the area where it is filmed. It was, therefore, very attractive to try to build an oven of similar design. My own Tiroler Bäckofen, if you will.

I had seen ovens of this variety and had never before understood why there was a line of wood that jutted out from the sides. These turned out to be the beams. My guess is that they are using extremely durable hardwood beams.

I don't have access or money for those, but I do have all of these cedar beams that I can use. But will the mortar stick to them? What happens if they expand? Should I cover them with vermiculite concrete? Will they last very long if exposed to portland cement or water? I just need to find these thing out and then I'm off and running.

TB
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  #17  
Old 07-25-2008, 08:17 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: New Design

TB,
My two cents. Beyond the strength issue, I too would be concerned with the long term corrosiveness of any cement based material in direct contact with cedar. Yes, cedar is somewhat rot and bug resistant in its natural state; I would say long term direct contact with a caustic such as portland cement is most certainly going to lead to degradation, although it may take several-many years...I just don't know.
A bigger concern to me would be expansion and contraction (movement) of the cedar, and for you in Chicago - freeze/thaw.
Based on all factors, if you choose to move forward with this I would seriously consider some type of "slip plane" between the cedar 4 x 4s and the concrete above. In essence, a membrane between the two materials. What to use? I'm thinking a weather, UV, and cement impervious product, probably some type of poly sheathing. I want to stress, this is new ground for me (as well as most of this forum)....so all bets are off.....all mere speculation on my part. GOOD LUCK.

RT
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  #18  
Old 07-25-2008, 08:28 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: New Design

TB,
Rethinking the slip plane idea. Any kind of membrane may need to be high temp - depending on how well you insulate. Another option - sheet aluminum? Just throwing things out there, hoping something sticks.

RT
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  #19  
Old 07-27-2008, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: New Design

I'm a little unclear about your build...but I do know that you must tar paper between the cement and the wood. Cement eats wood if in direct contact.
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  #20  
Old 07-27-2008, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: New Design

While I have some people reading this, I should also ask, if I have a maximum depth of 33" and maximum width of 35", should I bother building the pompei, or a rectangular oven. If yes to rectangular barrel vault, then can I make it wider than deep? Will this prove bad for airflow?

TB
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