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  #11  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:31 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Lee!

It is, I think shocking how good no knead bread can be...but it is not a universally good practice. Most casual bakers tend to either overmix (using a mixer and overoxidizing the dough to bad result) or severely undermix (with the result of getting inconsistent results). Undermixing per se, need not be bad. The dough must be mixed until it has some uniformity or it will typically be weird due to uneveness of hydration and yeast distribution.

The real issue I think with undermixing is that the gluten is underdeveloped and the gas retention in the dough during fermentation and proofing is tenuous - not so much that it won't retain gas so much as it is weak and cannot be handled without losing gas. Thus, the no knead, which plops the dough into a Dutch oven never to be touched again, works. Try to ferment it on a couche and transfer to a peel and then to the stone or hearth and you have...a dense pancake. As an aside, I find the "be gentle with the dough" mantra hilarious for I can make amazingly light, open crumb baguettes that are beaten into a 3/4 inch thick 4 x 9 rectangle. If you can't handle the bread roughly it is either underdeveloped or overproofed or both.

Now...to your question about room temperature rise... Let's break breadmaking down to the steps (after dough is adequately mixed/developed). The yeast should IMO be given some time to get going. If you do S&Fs that will provide an hour or so, maybe more, of bulk fermentation. At that point the yeast is going great. It can easily be retarded at that point. I am not as excited about immediate retards but not a big deal. Just needs to be kneaded some after the retard if using S&F and not somewhat developed before the retard. NOTE: back to the above comments. IF you retard immediately with minimal mixing/no S&F, there will be relatively poor gluten development but also little gas creation for the yeast will be relatively inactive. Cold temps help gas retention, so when you take it out of retard, give it some kneading/S&Fs and it should be pretty close to doing the S&Fs and then retarding. I don't see this as a big deal.

There are some who go straight to the oven from the retard. That I think is a mistake from multiple perspectives. IF the dough was properly developed and reasonably bulk fermented before retarding the results can be pretty good. Counting on the yeast to work in the refrigerator is a bit iffy though, especially for sourdough. I also believe the cold center of the loaf will tend to bake weird (a bit like the soft boiled white and yolk of a cold egg versus a room temp egg). I have done it. it need not be a disaster. It does tend to get you a crust with tiny bubbles that some people like. But... I think it is better to pull the retarded dough from the fridge. Stretch and work it a bit (which also helps warm it a bit and get the yeast redistributed and active. Then form the loaf and put it in a banneton and let it warm up. While I seem more reliable now, when I retard I used to tend to have a problem knowing when the dough was ready to bake. IMO it should be light and airy. If it is heavy, and especially still cold, it tends to give a denser/erratic crumb.

While I would argue that pizza dough tends to yield similar results I would also argue the acceptable variance in the proofing of pizza dough is such that it need not matter much.

Hope that helps!
Jay

Last edited by texassourdough; 04-21-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2012, 08:50 PM
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Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Thumbs up Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
Hi Lee!

....snip....While I would argue that pizza dough tends to yield similar results I would also argue the acceptable variance in the proofing of pizza dough is such that it need not matter much.

Hope that helps!
Jay
Always thought provoking Jay, thanks. As far as pizza dough is concerned is this (quoted above) your thesis statement then?

I think I might try going right from kneading to the refrigerator some time soon.
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Last edited by Lburou; 04-23-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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  #13  
Old 05-06-2012, 06:03 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Lee!

I have been on the road....

You can go straight from the mixer to the fridge. It won't do much weird. The norm per Peter R is only 15 to 30 minutes at room temp as I recall for pizza dough. And yeah you take it out two hours before you make pies - well, I put my dough balls in trays and I take out a whole batch that may be out at room temp for six hours before they are baked - and they are still fine. The variation in proofing is not a big deal. Assuming the dough has been developed enough to hold gas, there will be plenty left and the proofing is not real critical.

The only way I see it being critical is if you are a minimal yeast user where you are counting on time to compensate for your low yeast dose. And even then it would only be a big deal in the extreme. (and you would know because your pies would be like dense cardboard.
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  #14  
Old 05-06-2012, 07:50 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
Hi Lee!

...snip.... cardboard.....
Who told you?

We tried it (straight to the refrigerator with no rise time) and there was no value added, so will probably go to the 30 minute rise and then into dough balls.

Thanks Jay!
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Last edited by Lburou; 05-07-2012 at 05:58 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

I go into the fridge 24 hrs after about 1 hourish on the bench
When it starts to grow, about double it goes in.
Next day it comes out about 1 hr before I knead/need it.
Flatten it out cold
Let it rise before it goes in
Might not be technically right but its producing excellent pizzas
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  #16  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Guys,
Here is another suggestion I would love to get your opion on. Whilist in Bali last year, we went into a itallian resturant as we all felt like wood fired pizza. They were fantastic when they came out, that good in fact I got the head chef over to pick his brain.

He said what he does is cuts down the yeast from 6gs per 1 kg of flour to 1g. After mixing and letting it 'start to get going' he balls it and fridges it for 3 days. Makes for a crispy but fluffy dough that is highly stretchable.

I am yet to try this, my last venture I tried 3-4gs yeast per 1kg flour. After 3 days it had risen way too much, so Im trying the 1g this time. Will let you know how I went.

Any thoughts would be good.

Cheers
Scott
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  #17  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:25 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Hi Scott!

The enzymes that break down starch are not as temperature affected as yeast and bacteria so extended retards tend to create a dough that is degraded in a sense. Some people seem to like it, others don't. While there are some on this forum that seem to go much longer than three days, I personally think the dough starts going downhill pretty severely after that. I make my dough to be at peak condition in about 24 hours. While as you suggest, rather gassy after two or three days it still works fine. Better to cut the yeast to match your expected retard period. 1 gram per kilo sounds light IMO for a three day retard, but...it could easily vary with the yeast/salt/???

Just do it!

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2012, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Dough - Bench proof or right into the fridge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lburou View Post
The PBS series called _America's Test Kitchen_ had a show featuring New York Style Pizza.

Their dough recipe included:
  • 16.5 oz bread dough,
  • 1 t Sugar,
  • 1/2 t instant yeast,
  • 1 1/2 cups ice water,
  • 1 1/2 T table salt and
  • 1 T oil.....
  • Mix in Food processor for 10 seconds, then autolyse for 10minutes, followed by another 30-60 seconds in Food processor and straight to the refrigerator for at least 24 hours!
The idea of using ice cold water and skipping the ferment at room temperature for immediate refrigeration and a long cold ferment is to have smaller bubbles in the crust and more flavor for a thin, crisp crust.

Any comments?
Lee,

I'm not sure how much responsibility the proofing method plays, but for what it's worth, the Test Kitchen recipe you quoted is my all-time favorite for cooking in my (unmodified) electric oven on a stone. The FB "standard" dough recipe using Caputo 00 just doesn't come to life without the high temps of a WFO, tastes pretty flat.

Jamie
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