#31  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:21 PM
Tscarborough's Avatar
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:45 PM
Serf
 
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tscarborough View Post
So basically you agree that what matters is the bottom line, and not really how you get there.
While the bottom line is what matters in the end as a consumer I need to understand how that number was arrived at to know if I'm getting value. I don't expect to get that from the contractor, but If I did, and I found I could trust their numbers, I'd be recommending that person to all my friends. If you offer good value for your services it doesn't matter what you disclose to the customer. Of course what the customer perceives as value is only commensurate with the knowledge that customer has. Who better to educate than the skilled craftsman?

But that is not the way the market place usually works. Caveat Emptor. I must determine for myself what I'm willing to pay for and what is value. That's why I post and read and think.

Thanks,
Cro
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

Yep, you have won half the battle just by reading and posting here to educate yourself.

I may be off base, but I look at this forum as a DIY site, both for people who want to build an oven and for those who want to learn to build pizzas. The bottom line is that we are all here to learn, and if nothing else we should be grateful for the forum that Forno Bravo so generously gives us to exchange information.
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  #34  
Old 08-23-2010, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

I agree that the bottom line is the bottom line but I wholeheartedly disagree that it's none of the client's business or irrelevant how I got there. If you're taking or proposing taking someones money, it's their prerogative to want to know what they want to know regardless of whether you agree with it or not. My approach is that if it makes the client more comfortable to have that information, than I have no problem disclosing it. In the case of commodity materials and services as in construction, not being up front about those costs amounts to being coy, because as we have said, the information is out there for anyone who bothers to look.

AS A CONSUMER, I am saying that I would be disinclined to hire anyone who is not forthcoming about their rates, and I disagree with your generalization that those are exclusively the morons or bad businesspeople. The client/provider relationship has changed in a post-internet world, like it or not. People have and demand more information. Accept, move on and make it work or get offended, your choice. Like Cro said so well again, I like to be clear about what I am paying for and understand its value. More importantly, I feel that an understanding of value is an important and MISSING aspect of the consumer/provider/product relationship across the board. People have NO clue what things--anything--really cost, either by choice or by design, and in my world and opinion, that is universally a bad thing.
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  #35  
Old 08-24-2010, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

As the quote goes: we have no problem with those who under charge - who better than they know the true value of their work

Strange how people want a breakdown for parts & labour and free follow up for life (just about), yet are willing to pay a doctor over and over despite not getting better.
In our country at least there is no real appreciation for a master craftsman and that it is a profession entitled to a decent profit just as a broker or lawyer.

yip - you touched a raw nerve :-)


I would recommend a phone call or three to references as the ultimate test.
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  #36  
Old 08-24-2010, 10:13 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

I have decided not to hire this fellow. Not because of the quality of his work, but because I can't afford his price. So if he's made a cheap bid I certainly can't afford a master.

This discussion has gotten off on a tangent. An interesting one so I'll throw 2 more cents. There is a tension between consumers and sellers. As consumers you have to educate yourself in order to know your not getting ripped off. tscarborouhgs youtube vid clearly shows the problem from teh sellers point of view. Problematic customers with unreasonable, unrealistic requests. But I'm sure you could find the vid of the shoddy contractors that don't show up, do less than what they promised and leave your place in a shambles. There are monkey on both sides. the problem comes in trying to decide am I dealing with a monkey or master. I don't know what the answer is, guess we all have to be on gaurd and try to educate ourselves.

I will finish by saying I think $8500 when materials are at most 2k is too much. Not knocking anyone, just what works for me.

Thanks,
Cro
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  #37  
Old 08-24-2010, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

Such is the beauty here in America, the land where, with the need, desire and resources, one can acquire virtually anything one wants. With so many vendors of a given product, we get to enjoy the freedom of choice of quality, price, features, delivery method etc. This diversity of elements and design that go into the construction of a WFO, a true discretionary, hobby project, is what makes this forum and it's contents so worthwhile.
Conversely, if one is not in line with the price of a pre-cast oven one can make the choice to build one him/herself and vice versa.
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  #38  
Old 08-24-2010, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

Sad to say but there are lot of shady contractors.

I am not a contractor, by the way, but I have been in the past, and I come from a family of commercial General Contractors. I have done commercial masonry sales for the last 20 years. Here is my guide to a successful home project.


1. Figure out what you want, in detail, including dimensions, surface finishes, and brand names and model numbers of equipment. For an oven, FB has made it easy. Their plans are perfect to serve as part of the contract detailing the dimensions and specifications of the oven itself. Cut and paste the applicable parts. For the surround, patio, and other parts of the project, hand drawn is fine, but it should be dimensioned, but NEVER drawn to scale. Each piece of equipment should be dimensionally located and specified by name and model number, and each different finish should be listed by brand and name.

2. Get the names of some likely contractors and qualify them before you bother getting prices. By that I mean check their references, their licenses, insurance, and bonding. Don't even consider any that do not have Insurance and references, but the licensing and bonding requirements will vary by location.

3. Set up an appointment with several to visit the jobsite, and if possible, get your plans into their hands a couple of days beforehand. It goes without saying that if they are late, miss appointments, don't return calls, etc, then scratch them off the list. Also note that most reputable contractors work normal business hours, 9-5, just like every one else. Saturday mornings are also usually OK. Don't bother them outside these hours and don't let them bother you outside them either.

4. When you meet, explain your expectations, your budget, and your desired time line for completion. Yes, they need to know your budget upfront, otherwise you are both just wasting time. Make it a reasonable range of 10-20% on either side of your ideal number. Go over the plans and the site. Do most of the talking for the first part, then be quiet and listen as it winds down. What you are looking for at this point is someone who will tell you that it looks like a good project, they may have suggestions to improve upon it as designed, and can usually offer you options for upgrades or value engineering (saving money).

If they offer to give you a price right then, be very wary. Encourage them to take the plans, price it out with any options discussed and get it back to you in a reasonable amount of time (2-3 days for an oven, one week maximum for an outdoor kitchen build for example).

5. Study the proposal they give you. Make sure that it matches and/or includes everything in your plans and specifications, and that the payment and completion schedules are included. There are many different payment schedules, but ideally, each party should be more or less equal at any given point (you in work and materials, he in money), and at the end, you should owe 5-10% of the total price as a hold back for completion to your satisfaction. Also note that it is not unreasonable to require a 5-10% deposit from you at contract signing to get you onto his production schedule.

6. Expect mess and noise during the project, but there are ways to mitigate it. First, make sure they have clear and free access to the work site, and if that access is over delicate ground, make sure in the contract that it is to be protected, or restored upon completion. They will need water and electricity, and you should provide an area close to the site to stage their equipment and materials, and should be able to safely leave them there for the duration. Restroom facilities are NOT your responsibility, nor is drinking water. Require them to clean up most debris and all tools, hoses daily, and for certain over the weekend.

7. Keep your kids and dogs away from the area both while they are working and while they are gone. It is a safety issue.

8. When the project is complete, but before they have demobilized, walk the project with the foreman or owner, and make a list of anything you see that needs to be done and mark each spot with something, stucco tape works well.

When those items are taken care of, you have documentation on any equipment, warranties, etc, then the project is yours and you should pay the retainage (that last 5-10%) and shake his hand. Offer to allow him to come back and take photos when it is landscaped if you are so inclined.

The main thing to remember is that it should not be an adversarial relationship. The common goal is the successful completion of the project, but it does take effort and compromise on both sides to make it work.
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  #39  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: Ballpark cost for a 42" Pompei type oven?

Tscarborough:
Very useful and helpful information you've provided above. It should be really helpful to Cro or anyone (I'm sure there are many) who might have used this forum as a starting place for contracting out on oven.

Cro:
Yes, I'm at about $5000 according to my spreadsheet below. However $2000 is for the slate roof and stone siding. Your now at $3000. I probably spent an extra $600-$800 on tools a normal contractor would already have and on over-kill stuff that us newbies tend to do like too much steel and too many or kinds of expansion bolts for the framing, etc..etc.. when just using the correct stuff in the correct spot would suffice.

As the earlier posts have stated: your final product can only be as good as your communication (in plan form and spec form) to the contractor as to what you want. Good luck, you've started an interesting post and we've all gained some great info already.

Cheers, Dino
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