#11  
Old 03-31-2010, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

Thanks for the info, I haven't tried to use my SD starter yet but it is ready to go.
I figured it would take longer to rise than yeast does.
So "final build" will be at what part of the process exactly? is it after autolyse?

I got alot of info from this site:
Jeff Varasano's NY Pizza Recipe
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  #12  
Old 04-01-2010, 04:33 AM
MK1 MK1 is offline
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

The final build is when you add the SD starter to the remaining ingredients.

Mark
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  #13  
Old 04-20-2011, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

I just finished baking my first run with the Ischia Island sourdough yeast.

I must say, I am very pleased. I've never made sourdough before, I've never even managed my own cultures. I couldn't be happier.

I followed the instructions bringing the culture to life over 3 days, this wasn't difficult at all. I think the advanced temperature initially is what is needed to awaken the yeast from what I read (85 F), I then let them continue at 75 for 2 more days.

I used a ratio of 1 to 3 starter to flour ? But as I got to thinking about things, the starter is going to feed on the new flour when I go to make the dough, so I am tempted to think if I add less starter and more new flour and increase the time to proof ? I think I might increase leavening as there will be more sugars in the new flour for the starter to consume. With this reasoning, even though you might want too add more starter thinking you'll need more ? I think it probably works out that the less starter the more leavening, I haven't tested this theory yet. I do observe an initial higher temperature though brings the yeast into action. I know 120 kills yeast, and anything over 100 isn't terrific, but I started my final build at approximately 100.

I'd say intuition and careful attention to trying to understand just what's going on will bring success, I am very pleased with the first product, the second product I mismanaged as to timing and let the dough proof for 14 hours. I do say- it's got a nicer sourness to it - I use Farino "00" I order from Penn Mac in Pittsburgh, they ship it - it's like $30 for a 55 lb bag, you can't beat it. I am truly amazed at the difference in crumb the yeast makes. I FINALLY got the texture of a bread that could alone bring a great happiness in food consumption.

I poured off the 'hootch' before making my dough though, I was afraid the alcohol might inhibit the yeast growth in the leavening process... I wonder though if that would bring a richer more complex flavor !

Hope everyone gets a chance to try the Ischia Island starter. I'll be keeping that culture cared for for the rest of my life.
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  #14  
Old 04-20-2011, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

Tim, how would you compare the taste to commercial yeast?
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  #15  
Old 04-21-2011, 07:17 AM
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Smile Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

I could compare the two as the difference between a bad macro beer and a good micro beer.

It is the difference such of a chicken soup made with one cube of generic flavoring with some salt vs a soup made with chicken stock, fats, rich intense flavors.

It is such that I can understand with this bread product from this yeast ? Someone being quite content in life with this as a daily staple item.

I've ordered various yeasts - some from Italy, over time and each time I think - ah, maybe THIS will give me that rich flavor I'm looking for.

I've used this Farina "00" Caputa flour quite a bit and while it can create some interesting 'crispy' features to breads, pizza crusts, I wasn't expecting to get a real intense tough crust, with even a tough crumble - but to my surprise - I'm on attempt #3 now, each successful (#3 is cooling), I get a REAL strong crust and crumb, I'm in part concerned I might lose my dental bridge - heh, chewing it - but the flavor is what a hefewizen bock is to a clear macro beer, complex, fruity in some ways. My last attempt I let the bread proof much longer - I sampled a tiny bit and I've achieved what I was hoping, an real sour taste.

I can only say if you're asking in that you MAY try this strain ? (I'm sure many sourdough starters and wild yeasts would probably be as delicious, I just figured, okay, this is from a 200 year old bakery, must have something going for it!) I highly recommend doing so.

I could describe it also as such: After experiencing it ? I think my life would be incomplete without this ! heh - seriously.

I plan to take care of my starter for life, and I will probably use it daily, if not a couple times a week.

I've bought bread at bakeries, even out west when I lived in Santa Cruz, San Fran area, I always thought it was the dough that did it, now I realize SOMEHOW the yeast has a critical role in texture. I wasn't expecting this... Btu that's what I've observed.

I got my yeast from Sourdoughs international, Sourdoughs International: sourdough bread starter, sourdough bread recipes, bread machine recipes for about $15, it also came with another strain I'm just now activating, I've tried the Ischia Island strain. The booklet that comes with the starter yeast mentioned Forno Bravo and one fellow at Forno Bravo, I forget their name, they specialize in pizza's and wood fired ovens...

Now, next step would be a Forno Bravo oven, but i'm afraid that's out of my reach financially, but it's on my list if I can get my software engineering career back on track.

Giving time to planning and patience is all I'd recommend for success with this yeast. I will try it with other flours next, but I do like this "00" farina flour, doesn't require heavy kneading, no need for olive oil, very silky - I can see why top chefs seek it for pastries.

I do think between this yeast, flour and a Forno Bravo oven ! The path to happiness is very simple indeed.

Gee, I'm tempted to give away this bread I've made so far just because I think people would go "wow, that is what bread is all about"- but I do say- I bet I'd be content opening a bakery over software engineering at this point ! heh...

Bottom line - it was the yeast that made the difference for me in reaching what I can now say is - the best bread I've ever made, AND I actually didn't have to DO that much, it was just waiting and timing it- and making sure I had the temp high enough to get it nice and active. SOMEHOW it makes my Farina seem like it's high gluten -

I do 450 for about 5 minutes, then drop it to 400 for about 10 minutes, then I drop it to 335 for about 30 to 35 minutes. My thought is to get serious heat in fast for steam to create larger pockets. I finally see 1/2 inch pockets in my bread. I'm not sure if my theory tests true, but that's my typical approach, higher heat at first, then lower it.

I would write all day, so I better stop before I bore anyone !

Thanks for asking though.

One thing for sure, EVERYONE should have a good sourdough culture around I think, so simple to find so much happiness through such a basic process and product.

Tim Miltz
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  #16  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

Tim, thanks, I have used a home made sourdough starter in some pizza and bread and have not been overwhelmed so far - though it may be because my doughs are all 100% wheat. You certainly give this culture a glowing review, clearly worth a $15 investment. I don't have a Forno Bravo oven, but have been playing with my version of a B G E ( a Big Steel Keg ) with lump charcoal, and I just picked up some steel plates to see how they compare to pizza stones.
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  #17  
Old 04-21-2011, 01:39 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

It might be the caputo flour then.

Penn Mac sells it and ships it if you're interested in trying it- it's rather inexpensive considering the product and the world grain shortage going on. I like getting my Grande cheeses from them - it ships cool, and the prices are far better than the super market- their Grande East Coast blend is nice. Just to pass on a good source for pizza supplies. They are out of Pittsburgh, I'm sure if you google them you'll find them.

I like your steel plates idea. I wonder if Iron would hold heat better than steel. Neat though. I just cracked my pizza stone, ran it too high and I had moisture in it... time for a new one !

The booklet that came with my sourdough starter actually recommends wheat though.
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2011, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

Hello , try 10% for pizza, ferment for 12-14 hrs. make dough balls put in sealed container and cold ferment in fridge for 3 days , thats my regiment for camoldoli its worth the wait.
for breads try 30% do folds every 1/2 hr.for 4 hrs. make loaves and raise for 3 hr. before baking,this is for 65-75% hydration dough.

Phil
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

Invaluable information there Phil

thankyou so much for sharing.

I think when Plato and Aristotle would mock the Sophists for charging for education ? I think Plato and Aristotle would commend you for being so forthcoming with your valuable knowledge here at no cost ! That 3 day part is of interest to me, I wouldn't have thought so long, I think that's going to pan out terrific.

Hey, I wonder how a cold ferment was done in antiquities ! ? If at all, but I wonder if they used salt or something to create a chilled box of some sort.

I can't wait, er, I CAN wait to try this !

When you say 'do folds' - how much do you fold it ?

Tim Miltz
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2011, 09:02 AM
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Smile Re: Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia

Hello Tim, well the folds are done after 1/2 hr autolyse salt is added with a small amount of water left over from the % of total water mix dough well then fold as if you were to make an envelope out of a sheet of paper first the sides then then the top and followed by the bottom, every 1/2 hr. for 4 hrs.I do this for bread, pizza I usualy knead for 20-30- min.in my spiral mixer,old time cork screw mixer, the last time did try the folds on pizza dough with good results but needs more folding I would guess 2 more hrs.its time consuming,but for pizza the gluten needs to be developed fully for scretching pizza discs,,here are some pics. of my works. Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia-dscf0348.jpg

Sourdough cultures, Camaldoli, Ischia-dscf0760.jpg
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