I finally got Caputo; and a question. Ingredients Discuss I finally got Caputo; and a question. in the Brick Oven Cooking forums; For those of us without the luxury of an ideal dough mixer, I suggest using an overhydrated dough initially for ...

[maver]

For those of us without the luxury of an ideal dough mixer, I suggest using an overhydrated dough initially for the long knead to reduce friction and overheating, then towards the end work in the remaining flour. Does that make sense Jim?

[Richard]

Jim,

How is a fork mixer different from your current SP5 spiral mixer.

[CanuckJim]

Richard, Maver,

First off, with a spiral mixer, you have a dough hook that's in a fixed position. It turns, sure, but only the bowl actually spins. This is both to reduce friction against the sides of the bowl and to improve ingredient amalgamation; kind of a two way street, if you will. The hook revolution is slower than a planetary, too. By contrast, fork mixers, sometimes called plunge mixers I think, use a two pronged fork that plunges into and turns the dough. The Italian makes are VERY slow; the French ones a bit faster. The fork design provides a much gentler action on the dough and does not generate heat. Far as I can tell, these mixers are made in large commercial sizes, and they're quite expensive. One pizza dough recipe I read called for 15 minutes of kneading in a fork mixer . Not one of us could get away with that; we'd have fried dough. Still, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for smaller, affordable sizes, because I will have to get something larger sooner than later. Don't get me wrong, the SP5 is one fine machine, but I will outgrow the size.

Second, Maver, you're almost there. Making high-hydration doughs with the method you describe is part of the answer. But, and it's a big one, the major variable over which you have the most control is your water. With wild yeast doughs unspiked with commercial yeast (those that are meant to be retarded overnight), I keep the temperature of the water on the low side, sometimes as low as 65 F, so I can control the temp of the dough in the mixer. Also, Jeffrey Hamelman in his Bread book recommends much shorter knead times, and then folding the dough once or twice during bulk fermentation. The folding strengthens the gluten structure without risking overheating. Almost all his recommended fully kneaded dough temps are on the low side: 74-76 F, and you can only do this by controlling the water temp. Although it's definitely on the pro side, this is an extremely worthwhile book. At the back, there's a discusssion of friction factors for various mixers. At King Arthur Flour, where he's head bread instructor, he uses a spiral mixer.

For doughs that use commercial yeast, either active dry or instant, many recipes call for water in the 90-100F range. Definitely keep it on the lower end of the scale. Rising might be a "bit" slower, but so what?

The idea behind all of this is to strike a fine balance: hydration, gluten development and putting the yeast in an ideal spot for the perfect rise. Natch , I get it just right each and every time.

Jim

[Ryan]

Jim,

I have been using the King Arthur 00 pizza blend of flour. It has been ok but the dough has not turned out as I had originally expected. I am wondering if I need to use Vital Wheat Gluten or something to enhance the flour? also, I am in Colorado and at 5,000 ft up I am wondering if a High Altitude adjustment is necessary?

Thanks,

Ryan

[CanuckJim]

Ryan,

A touch of vital wheat gluten might help (1tsp for 4 cups flour), though I'm not familiar with that particular KA flour. I think your major problem is altitude. The resident expert on that is Drake Remoray in Denver; I'm sure he will have some help for you.

Jim

[james]

Hey Ryan,

The Caputo folks often say that it's not the quantity of the gluten, but the quality. I think that adding vital wheat gluten can help with some bread recipes, but I am not sure it will improve pizza dough. What about hydration? Have you really pushed the limit on your water? Try shooting for higher water percentages, and let it sit for 20 mintues before you start kneading to let the flour really absorb the water.

I am guessing, but I would start there first.

Are you using olive oil? If yes, try it without; if no, try it with. A pure dough recipe with Caputo flour does not need (or want) olive oil, but perhaps the King Arthur flour would do better with it.

It will be good to hear what our high altitude contingent says.

Let us know how it goes,
James

[maver]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Jim,

I have been using the King Arthur 00 pizza blend of flour. It has been ok but the dough has not turned out as I had originally expected. I am wondering if I need to use Vital Wheat Gluten or something to enhance the flour? also, I am in Colorado and at 5,000 ft up I am wondering if a High Altitude adjustment is necessary?

Thanks,

Ryan

Ryan, what exactly are you unhappy with in your dough? There are quite a few possibilities here, and the answers could come down to differences in how the dough is handled, altitude, baking process, expectations. So how is it lacking? Tell more also about what you are doing to get to where you are now.

[Ryan]

Thanks for the help guys! The dough texture seems right, the window pane method is good, but then after the dough is tossed it starts to fall apart. I never had this problem using all purpose flour so I am a bit discouraged. I have tried adding more flour but something just doesn't seem right. I am going to try th Caputo Flour with the recipe they provide to see if that helps.

Thanks,

Ryan

[DrakeRemoray]

I am not an expert (yet) in pizza dough. Mainly I have been using KA Bread flour. I tried a 00 Italian flour that my Dad got for me, but it was very difficult to work with, mostly due to the fact that it had clumped up and needed to be sifted! But also, it did not stretch as well as the dough made with the bread flour.

I purchased some Caputo 00 from James and will try it soon (another 4-6 inches of snow here today...don't you love that Ryan?).

I have been using Peter Reinhart's recipe so far with no adjustments for high altitude. The main problem that I have had is a very flat center of the pizza. I would like to see at least some small bubbles in the crust all the way to the tip of a slice.

Drake

[maver]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Thanks for the help guys! The dough texture seems right, the window pane method is good, but then after the dough is tossed it starts to fall apart. I never had this problem using all purpose flour so I am a bit discouraged. I have tried adding more flour but something just doesn't seem right. I am going to try th Caputo Flour with the recipe they provide to see if that helps.

Thanks,

Ryan

So with Caputo, I have not had this kind of problem. Caputo makes a remarkably supple, silky dough that you can just push around. I only have holes if I overdo it and try to get too thin. Because of the suppleness, I do have to treat it more gently. I could toss my old tough (bread flour) lower hydrationg bread flour dough, and I had to really work it to stretch it. With caputo, it sort of goes wherever I want it to go. I use either a patting/rubbing motion to stretch the dough or use the flip technique (search u-tube for pazzo pizzaiolo). If I tried to handle my caputo dough the way I handled my old bread flour/low hydration dough, it would probably 'fall apart.'

Are you talking about holes when you say falling apart?