Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community

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-   -   kneading (http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f14/kneading-19193.html)

rock dude 04-08-2013 04:09 PM

kneading
 
why is it that peter reinhart and most forum guidelines recomend very light kneading, but manufacturers of fork and spiral mixers...and also roberto at keste etc seem to be kneading for 15-20 minutes. Is it the larger batch size? Or does mixer style make that much differance? I currently use kitchen aid mixer(5 qt.) I am in the process of planning a new pizza restaurant and testing doughs. I do not have a wood oven yet, so testing is tricky. I do have restaurant experience though. I am shooting for a neapolitan "style" pie, but with a longer bake time at a little lower temperature, for a crisper finish. I could use some guidence to make this result possible. Thanks...rock dude

Laurentius 04-08-2013 05:32 PM

Re: kneading
 
Hi Rocks,

" Buy our high performance expensive mixers and knead lightly." What a sale pitch? I think what Peter and others are doing is geared toward motivated non professional. Trying to allow them to control their final product. In the end there is no right or wrong, start lightly and progress slowly to the extreme and find your personal preference.

Faith In Virginia 04-08-2013 05:41 PM

Re: kneading
 
You need to watch the dough ...not the clock!!! Kneading should be done until proper dough development. After repeated batches you will start to know about how long that will be. Every mixer is different. You do not want to over mix your dough and longer mixing times really affect DDT (Desired Dough Temperature)

What formula are you going to use?

Tscarborough 04-08-2013 06:10 PM

Re: kneading
 
Or you can use time instead of kneading. I do 7 stretch and folds before ballling but after hand mixing for a couple of minutes, and that is all it needs (plus the 24+ hours to ferment).

tusr18a 04-08-2013 06:23 PM

Re: kneading
 
I agree with Tscarborough. It is all about gluten development. Whether you get it through a 10 minute knead or a longer rise with multiple folds, it is all the same. For small batches, I used to develop the gluten through a 10 to 20 knead. After feeling physically exhausted, I tried the folding method. Was shocked by how easy it was to develop the gluten with just a few folds. On a commercial level, I get very lazy and fire up the Hobart. Consistent results without breaking your back.

rock dude 04-08-2013 06:25 PM

Re: kneading
 
formula is:
22oz Caputo 00
14oz room temp water
1 tea. ADY
2.5 teas. salt
I have baked bread all my life and realize that it is not knead time but rather the finale texture that counts. However I am currently trying every differrent technique I know trying to achieve the result that I am looking for. Currently I knead relativaly wet for about 5 minutes, adding the finale flour as i finish kneading...,about 2 more minutes. Final dough temp is about 72 degrees. I proof about an hour, then portion and retard for 24 to 48 hours. I am still curious about commercial mixer kneading. My results are OK, but then agin I only have home gas oven and pizza stone. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks...rock dude

Faith In Virginia 04-08-2013 06:56 PM

Re: kneading
 
If your planning a restaurant you will need to be working large dough batches so I don't know how you would work out a stretch and fold that would work well. The mixer can be your friend once you learn to work together. The WFO will make some difference but you should be able to develop your dough just fine even in the home oven.

That is a really standard formula so you and the competition will be neck and neck same-O same-O. I would work with other doughs that use 10% rye or whole wheat, work with some pre-ferments or some sourdough for some real flavor.


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