#21  
Old 12-15-2011, 12:17 PM
Laborer
 
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Location: Northern Virginia
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

S&F = stretch and fold. An alternative to traditional kneading as a means of developing the gluten.

Karl
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  #22  
Old 06-10-2012, 06:02 AM
BurntFingers's Avatar
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Location: Ocean County New Jersey
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmrice View Post
S&F = stretch and fold. An alternative to traditional kneading as a means of developing the gluten.

Karl
That is the method my DW uses when we make Ciabatta. She learned it from Ciril Hitz at the (WFO) Kneading Conference in Maine a few years ago. We plan on a firing later today to bake a load of breads. Probably Ciabatta and Baguettes all using a sour dough polish made with Neapolitan starter.

I better get to work now wasting too much time online at breakfast.
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  #23  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Clean up is now complete. Fired up oven and did 5 pizze with left over dough from last week for lunch. Swept out the oven and let her rest for an hour. Then did a load consisting of three ciabiatta, three baguettes with cheese in the lame slits, and two whole wheat gorgonzola and walnut baguettes. Pulled them out and put in a lasagna for dinner and then two half trays of eggplant parm. Dishes are done, kids are home, house is quite now. Time to rest with a glass of grappa.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:42 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Sounds like a successful day!
Jay
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2012, 01:58 PM
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Location: Port Townsend, WA
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Jay,

I am a relatively new member and slowly working on a WFO and have been learning to make sourdough bread for about a year or so. You seem to have it pretty wired so you might know why my loaves don't spring in the oven. I get a good rise during bulk ferment and proof, but when I slash prior to baking the loaf seems to deflate and never or only slightly recovers. I've even tried not slashing with the same results. The bread doesn't turn out too bad but just looks wrong! What is your experience with oven spring problems?

Fabulous looking loaves, by the way. I have a couple of Rhinehart's books and follow his basic techniques.

Thanks and regards,

Joe
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

I am no expert but sometimes when we let it proof too long that happens. So I would watch the timing of the final proof and avoid handling the loaf to roughly before putting it into the oven.
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2012, 12:11 AM
WJW WJW is offline
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Breadjunkie,

Sounds like overproofing. If your bread is not expanding significantly upon being placed in the oven (even with no slash at all), that sounds like over proofed bread to me.

What is the time line on your bulk fermment and loaf proof time? If you are over four and a half hours (all in) at 75 degrees or better...you are likely over proofed.

Hopefully Jay, Faith, or Chris will chime in.

As always...need photos to get the full picture.

Bill
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:17 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

As others said, almost certainly overproofed. Loaf forming has minor effects but...almost certainly overproofed.

Another factor which SHOULD be mentioned is your hearth/stone temp. Since you are working on a WFO I presume you are baking in an oven. The stone needs to be well heated. I allow an hour and I often heat the stone to temps above my baking temp - 475 to 500 when I will bake at 440 to 455. It does invite errors of resetting the temp but it also tends to give just a bit more oven spring. An underheated stone will not give good spring.

You don't mention times, but a healthy, robust sourdough starter using about a 4 to 1 expansion in the final expansion (water and flour totals 4 times the weight of the preferment) will typically need about 3 hours of bulk ferment and about 3 to 5 hours of proofing. Try cutting your proof time by a third or even half. And shorten your bulk if it is over three hours or you have a warm proofing area. (in Port Townsend???? ) The reason to change it a lot is to help you learn what underproofing does. Once you are on both sides of the proof you want, you cn interpolate and get a lot closer.

One last comment. Consistency really pays with sourdough. Making sure your starter is really robust (I often feed in the morning before I make my preferment (and sometimes twice by feeding the evening before that) This way the yeast is really active when I mix my final dough! If you aren't weighing, do so. Consistency makes sourdough a lot more predictable!

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #29  
Old 09-22-2012, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks to all for the responses. I think over proofing is definitely a possibility even though my proofing time is usually about 3 to 4 hours. However, I should explain my whole process. I start by taking about 40 grams of starter, feeding it with 40 gr of flour and water. ( I am using a spelt starter) I let this build over night at room temp. Next I make a sponge (preferment?) using 100 gr of this and 100 gr spelt flour and 50 gr water. When this has doubled in volume I make the dough using AP flour, water, salt, and a tsp of diastatic malt powder. I keep it fairly wet and sticky. After kneading for about 10 minutes I let it ferment until it has doubled. Usually about 6 hours. The temperature here lately in my kitchen has been in the high 60's. Then I gently transfer it to the board and fold it into a loaf and place it in a banneton trying not to degas in the process. This goes immediately into the fridge. In the morning I remove it and let it proof for the 3 or 4 hours. I preheat the oven to 500 deg and then lower it to 450 when I put the loaf in. It bakes on a stone under a roasting pan for 15 minutes then finishes uncovered.
I have noticed that it does expand in the fridge so maybe a shorter proof time after it comes out will solve my problem. I guess I should try skipping the final retard and just go directly to proof and bake.
Thanks Jay for the suggestion to under proof to see where I'm at. That's a good idea. One thing I have learned is if it's not working you have to change something!

Thanks again to all. What a great resource we have here.

Joe
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  #30  
Old 09-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Default Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks, Joe...

40 plus 40/40 is not enough food! Your starter should more than use that up in 8 to 10 hours. 20 plus 40/40 would be a better ratio. And it should be peaking the next morning in say 10 to 12 hours. Your total time for the final dough is awfully long. Six hours is a very long bulk ferment at room temp. I would cut that in half - maybe even to two hours if you are going to add a retard too. My personal starter doesn't particularly like retards and has a hard time getting going again after being cold. But it does get a significant amount of expansion in the fridge before it gets too cold. You could probably do okay with a two hour bulk, form the loaf, retard, and give it only a two or three hour proof out of the fridge. Remember...my total time from mixing final dough to baking is typically only six or seven hours... My schedule gives you four hours at room temp and the fridge is probably worth at least two to three so it should be okay...

And don't worry about being super gentle with dough. If you have it adquately developed and properly proofed it can be amazingly resilient. (Though spelt doesn't help the resiliency!) Shaping loaves need not be super gentle. You need to get tension and that takes some roughness.

Let us know how it works!
Jay
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