#11  
Old 12-14-2011, 02:55 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks, Brickie!

Hi Karl! They were done in a conventional electric oven. The S&Fs were done IN the rectangular tub. That approach works really well.

Hi David! S&F is Stretch and Fold. You can do them in a tub, on a counter, or even in a bucket. They tighten up and "shape" the gluten very quickly. The gluten needs to be formed so an autolyse or rest is necessary, but the stretching elongates and "aligns" the sheets of gluten to give good dough structure quickly. The oiled. rectangular plastic tub is my favorite. Just place the tub in front of you and pick the dough up or lift the far corners and pull the stretched dough toward you and set the edge down on the near side (sort of like folding the dough in half except it won't be "half".) Rotate the tub a quarter turn and repeat. And again, and again. When you have stretched from each side you have done one S&F to my thinking. The dough should be much stronger and more resilient. The number of S&Fs one does is variable. With really wet, slack doughs one might do three full S&Fs every 30 minutes for up to 2 hours but that would be unusual. I usually do one to three S&Fs every 30 minutes with the number varying with how the dough feels. If it is tight and tearing after two S&Fs, stop and let it rest. If it remains super slack, do it again. When it is "right" which is best evaluated IMO with a window pane test, stop!. At the end, I sometimes do less than a full S&F, folding it from one, two, or three sides. If the dough is so tight you lift the whole mass of dough out by the corners you have almost certainly gone too far! (Not a disaster but no point in folding more!) Unfortunately there is no way to describe the touch aspect!) You can find videos on S&F on the web!

And, SCChris! I have probably seen that idea there too, but...I will give you credit! One comment on the disposables - I reuse them! Good luck dumpster diving!

Good Luck!
Jay

Last edited by texassourdough; 12-14-2011 at 02:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-14-2011, 03:08 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
Posts: 1,155
Default Re: Today's Bread!

I know I've seen it somewhere in here..
Ah, here it is..

:-)

The other caption that works is "Once I finish this, I only have one more S&F... after... this... corner..."
Attached Thumbnails
Today's Bread!-dumpster-diving.jpg   Today's Bread!-roaster.jpg  

Last edited by SCChris; 12-14-2011 at 04:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-14-2011, 06:22 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Today's Bread!

Chris! That is a ROFL!

One other comment....to all...if you are serious about bread The Fresh Loaf is killer and deserves exploration. I place myself in the upper middle or so of TFL. There are people on TFL who are far better bakers than me but few have WFO experience and many of those who do are also on this site!

Question... Shouldn't the dude in the first picture be wearing a safety harness?
J
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-14-2011, 06:25 PM
brickie in oz's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Whittlesea
Posts: 3,455
Default Re: Today's Bread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post

Question... Shouldn't the dude in the first picture be wearing a safety harness?
J
I thought thats were he landed after a night on the booze.....
__________________
The English language was invented by people who couldnt spell.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-14-2011, 06:35 PM
david s's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,694
Default Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks jay,
So what is the "window pane test"?

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:27 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Today's Bread!

Window pane is taking a ball of dough (once it is reasonably mixed - won't really work on dough that still has dry stuff) and stretching it (and rotating it to stretch it somewhat uniformly to see how thin a "window pane" you can get before it tears. With really well developed doughs you can get a pane that is sort of clear and more or less able to read a newspaper through. That is TOO MUCH development for rustic breads and baguettes.

If you try it on a few doughs I think you will find that a no-knead dough, for example, will be highly extendible but will tear fairly easily - it will get thin but will remain whitish and opaque. It is still capable of making a good loaf but it can't take much handling or shaping without degassing. So you dump it in a dutch oven so it doesn't have to be touched. (and the tight/closed confines of the dutch oven traps humidity to give a good crust.)

At SFBI they mix until the dough is to a point where the dough yields a window pane that is still somewhat ragged - about half to 2/3 opaque (mainly strings/globs of opacity) with the rest somewhat clear and thin. If there are big globs of opacity it still isn't mixed well and it will tear early. This optimal mix will let you get a "window" (or at least be close) before it tears. While this is ideal it is certainly not necessary. I often mix a bit short and rely on the autolyse/rest to help finish the dough by forming the gluten and then rearranging it in the S&Fs.

SFBI follows the mixing in tubs with S&Fs every 30 minutes for up to two hours in an approximately 3 hour bulk proof. The dough is done (i.e. no more S&Fs or working during the bulk ferment) when it has the right "bouncy" smooth feel and that will typically correspond to a window pane that is about 1/4 to 1/3 threads (small cords) of opacity passing through a relatively thin/clear window.

Obviously words are not very precise for describing this but that is about the best I can do. Pictures don't work in my experience either so... Hands on experience is the best way to learn it.

What this working accomplishes is that it creates a dough that has the gluten well developed and organized and a dough that is strong enough to survive being shaped and formed into loaves that can typically stand alone (i.e. proof on a sheet of linen) and stand up to being flipped over and onto a peel without degassing significantly. It is not that underdevelopment yields bad bread so much as that the loaves will tend to degas more and you will get flatter loaves with less oven spring. (assuming proper proofing). Proper development is most critical for breads like baguettes that have a lot of handling and some of the big loaves (Pane di Genzano weighing 4 to 8 pounds that are like giant pillows and will fall like a cake if not properly developed.) and for breads like batards where you want to create a tight loaf so you can get a dramatic split/rip. But you can make really lovely loves with underdeveloped dough. Overdeveloped can be tough and lose taste - especially if it is overmixed and oxidized.

That feels like an enclyclopedic answer!
Jay

Last edited by texassourdough; 12-15-2011 at 08:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:03 AM
Lburou's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DFW area, USA
Posts: 1,110
Thumbs up Re: Today's Bread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
....snip....
Obviously words are not very precise for describing this but that is about the best I can do. Pictures don't work in my experience either so... Hands on experience is the best way to learn it.
....snip....
Jay
"Worms Roxanne, Worms!"


Interesting reading Jay, thanks.
__________________
Lee B.
DFW area, Texas, USA

If you are thinking about building a brick oven, my advice is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Our One Meter Pompeii Oven album is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

An album showing our Thermal Breaks is
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-15-2011, 11:20 AM
david s's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Townsville, Nth Queensland,Australia
Posts: 4,694
Default Re: Today's Bread!

Thanks Jay,
This is a lot more complicated than I thought. I just want to do a couple of loaves at a time as my oven is quite small, how much bread can you eat?
In order to make things easy and simple I use my bread maker on the dough setting, then remove the dough after it has mixed and risen then knead it a little, or refrigerate it. When the loaves are formed I place them on trays to rise, so I don't have to rehandle them and risk collapse (degassing) This seems to work well for me. Do you think I should be doing it differently?
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-15-2011, 11:46 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
Posts: 1,155
Default Re: Today's Bread!

David,

Bread, like many things can be as simple as a bread machine or as complicated as you want it to be. If you’re happy with what you’re getting right now, be happy, and when and if you want to explore different areas of bread making then do.

If you want a good starter to intermediate book then I can recommend “Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day”. It’s simple to get started and has enough depth to hold you for quite a while.

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Today's Bread!

It's not so much complicated as it takes time. I made gorgeous loaves today and didn't pull a window to test. I probably should, but touch told me it was right. I did two full S&Fs the first time and one the second.

The advantage of the bread maker is that it handles the dough prep without much effort. I devote a half to 3/4 day to bread when I bake. The activity is intermittent but I have to check on progress and pay attention so it is not trivial. (But it is also therapeutic for me) From what I have heard a lot of bread makers do a pretty good job on dough. I have never seen breadmakers give the open crumb I like but... I have confidence one can make better dough and worse than a bread maker. I suspect the biggest advantage is in making wet dough which I would expect to be a problem in a bread maker.

From what you have said you are happy with your bread so I would say keep doing it. If you decide you want something different you may or may not be able to do it with the bread maker and then the answer is clearer, but the learning curve/hassle may be bigger than you want to face - or it may not!

Fresh baked bread almost always makes people happy!
Jay
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Today's Bread, Proofing, and 1000th Posting! texassourdough Hearth Bread and Flatbread 9 07-12-2010 05:48 PM
Today's Bread james Hearth Bread and Flatbread 8 12-19-2008 11:34 AM
Bread Cook-off Sunday! 70chevelle Hearth Bread and Flatbread 3 10-27-2008 01:40 PM
Playing with bread fundamentals maver Hearth Bread and Flatbread 8 02-25-2008 09:42 PM
Damon's (BT) first bread attempt etc. Bacterium What You Cooked Last Night 19 07-12-2007 04:34 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
2006/10 Forno Bravo, LLC