#41  
Old 02-21-2011, 07:45 AM
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Napa, CA
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
... First, the fact that you bake in a WFO at 550 has NOTHING to do with the temp you bake at indoors. The ovens have drastically different heating and heat recovery patterns...
Jay, with yours and the others help from this thread, I feel my indoor oven baked IDY white flour french bread is pretty well under control.

When the weather changes back to where I can fire up my WFO, I will be using this IDY french bread recipe as a baseline to help learn my WFO oven and heat control.


Quote:
Second, for now, I suggest you stick to recipes in books and to one recipe until you get it right and the way you want it. There are plenty of recipes in BBA that use IDY and fresh preferments begun the day before. LATER you can, for the most part simply replace the preferment and yeast with levain (preferment based on sourdough starter)... ...One of the reasons you shouldn't mess around with adding things for now is that when you add jalapeños you will be adding acid and that slows the yeast so... ...You can safely add nuts, olives and seeds without much problem but I encourage you to not play with flours or other things until you are under control. Whole wheat, rye, etc. will foul you up if you don't understand them and you simply start mixing them in...
I am not sure what you are suggesting as a next step beyond the indoor oven IDY French Bread.


I figure I now have three different goals or headings for my bread making;
  1. Use the IDY French Bread recipe that I feel fairly confident with now as a baseline for learning how to bake in my WFO. This is on hold until the weather cooperates.
  2. Learn how to add items such as olives, grains, seeds & even jalapeños to the indoor oven IDY French Bread
  3. Learn how to manage the SD starter and baking in my indoor oven replacing the IDY in the French Bread recipe (with no added olives, grains, seeds or jalapeños)[/quote]
Quote:
Consider taking a class on bread. There must be good ones around.
I will look again as it has been a while since I checked around. The only problem is that around here things like that are kind of geared towards the local tourist industry and tend to be rather pricey. But I will certainly look for one.


Thanks again and I look forward to answers to some of my other questions from my other post.

Eric.
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  #42  
Old 02-21-2011, 08:04 AM
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Location: Napa, CA
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwood View Post
I need a copy of BBA very badly but having a hard time finding it here in RP...?
Can you order it online or is the shipping prohibitive? Which would be ironic as the book is printed in China. BTW, I spent a few days in and outside of Manilla last year and LOVED it!

Eric.
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  #43  
Old 02-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: minnesota, usa
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Eric is in Napa--San Francisco Baking Institute, Whoohoo!!
Not cheap, but probably one of the best educational resources you can find r/t bread. Jay can probably comment more--
San Francisco Baking Institute | Pastry Chef | Baking School | Pastry School | Bread | Pastry | Education |

slash right before you put your loaves into the oven.

big, open holes are related to the hydration of the dough, the gluten development, and the handling at all stages.
Think about your no-knead loaf with it's big holes. If you made it according to "the" recipe, it's 81% hydration. That is really high for bread (actually about the max that is managable for pizza dough, too) which is partly why it gives that big, open crumb. The high hydration also works toward the handling issue, because it's more or less impossible to really handle/shape that wet a dough. You end up doing basically no actual handling of the dough, thus, most of those big pockets of gas are preserved through to baking.

I presume you have a stand mixer? Try this recipe next:
Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread | The Fresh Loaf
It's a perfect illustration of how the combination of factors I just outlined leads to a super open crumb structure. Bonus is that it makes an absolutely FANTASTIC bread.
One of my all time favorites.

Re handling/shaping: Sourdough is much less tolerant of overhandling than IDY dough, IME. Another reason to hone your skills with IDY doughs.
Go to uTube and search for videos on bread shaping. Any of the Hamelman or Hirtz videos are great and extremely helpful.

Is the cracked wheat sourdough you are interested in duplicating a sandwich loaf (pan baked) or freeform?
Is it a plain white flour dough with cracked wheat added, or a wheat flour dough, or a combination? Are there other identifiable grains in it?
You can learn/know a lot about a bread with some careful observation, especially once you have seen/made a wide variety of doughs.
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  #44  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:03 AM
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Location: Napa, CA
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by splatgirl View Post
Eric is in Napa--San Francisco Baking Institute, Whoohoo!!
Not cheap, but probably one of the best educational resources you can find r/t bread. Jay can probably comment more--
San Francisco Baking Institute | Pastry Chef | Baking School | Pastry School | Bread | Pastry | Education |
Has anyone here attended one of their two day weekend workshops, or any of their other workshops?


Quote:
I presume you have a stand mixer? Try this recipe next:
Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread | The Fresh Loaf
...
I don't have one (yet) as I did not want to just jump and spend $200 to $500 on an appliance if I wasn't going to need or use it. I borrowed a friend's Kitchen Aid 7 qt model for pizza dough when I first started, but I think she is more willing to drop her 8 year old son off with us for the weekend than to leave her mixer with us!!! But that recipe does look good.



Quote:
Is the cracked wheat sourdough you are interested in duplicating a sandwich loaf (pan baked) or freeform?
Is it a plain white flour dough with cracked wheat added, or a wheat flour dough, or a combination? Are there other identifiable grains in it?
I think it is white flour based with the cracked wheat added, I don't know yet about other grains.

Yesterday I picked up a few different grains and some seseme seeds that I was going to soak and try adding to a partial batch of IDY.

Thanks again for the help. Eric.
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  #45  
Old 02-21-2011, 12:46 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

SFBI is excellent. I am going there for a week long Artisan I class in August. The week long classes are mainly for professionals/aspiring professionals. The weekend classes are for home bakers and are supposed to be quite worthwhile. There is a lot about baking that needs hands on experience and a good class can advance you in many ways.

I am mixing almost all my bread purely by hand now. Mixers are occasionally useful IMO but by hand is enlightening and makes you much more aware of your dough and its condition.

Hang in there!
J
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  #46  
Old 02-21-2011, 01:10 PM
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Location: minnesota, usa
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Again I agree with Jay. I would not go out and buy a stand mixer for the sake of bread. I use mine constantly for everything BUT bread and pizza dough. I do nearly all of that stuff by hand these days.
I think the world has moved on from long-kneaded doughs.
That ciabatta recipe I linked is a different story, however. I'm not sure there is any alternative to the whapping about in a stand mixer that recipe calls for. The end result is a dough that looks and acts exactly like runny silly putty. It's bizarre. I've never seen ANY other dough that looks and feels like that, much less a hand worked dough.
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  #47  
Old 02-21-2011, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric, the problem with ordering BBA online is that they won't ship to the Philippines. Just try to ship something outside the us from an online source, especially the Philippines. It's next to impossible. Believe me, I've tried. If you do get them to ship, there is less than a 50/50 chance that you will actually get it. Don't send birthday cards because for sure it won't be received because they think there is money in it. If it does get through the post-office then there is customs to deal with. They want there take also.

Guess I will have to have it sent to the kids. They know how to get around all those things.
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  #48  
Old 02-21-2011, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Thanks guys. Now (I promise) just a few more of my old questions:
  1. Is there a minimum temp that the proofed loaves should be prior to placing in the oven?
  2. Why does the BBA say to let the baked loaf cool at least 40 minutes? I don't want to wait that long!!!
  3. So far all of my mixes seem to use more water than the recipes call for, at least 30% more. I have been using up some Con Agra bleached bread flour that was given to me and mixing that with equal amounts of KA AP flour. The extra (untreated well) water doesn't seem to be a problem, but it has definately been more than the recipes call for including the no knead.
And is sounds like I need to get a little more time under my belt and then head on over to Oyster Point (that's where the SFBI is).

The price for the weekend workshop isn't too bad at all.

Eric.
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  #49  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:18 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

There are people who bake straight out of the fridge after a retard. I can't comment on how well that works because I don't do it. I would expect that approach to work better with commercial yeast which generally works better in cold temps than sourdough. My experience with sourdough is that temps below 68 or so can be very problematic. You can retard but the yeast needs the higher temps to get active enough to give a light loaf with good crumb. And at cold temps the proof can go on forever (or you will get a brick).

Above 68 or so it is just a matter of time. Below gets interesting.

Are you weighing your flour? Again...something is wrong. You should be struggling with doughs with 30 % extra water unless you are a "master" handler. Water need definitely varies with flour dryness but Napa isn't particularly dry so your flour is unlikely to be dry. Again, something strange.
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  #50  
Old 02-22-2011, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

[QUOTE=texassourdough;108473]Are you weighing your flour? Again...something is wrong...QUOTE]


No, we don't have our scale yet. So far it has been by measuring cup, I have read in the BBA about the baker's percentage and undestand the dfference between densities of what could be a cup of compacted flour versus a cup of "fluffy" flour.

Hopefully I will have time before this next weekend's round of baking to pick up a scale and another set of measuring cups (I need them anyway) to validate my measurements.

Eric.
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