#11  
Old 09-10-2009, 09:39 AM
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Location: kansas
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Default Re: Sourdough

Hey, that would be something! Come on up!

I looked up the Hamelman and ended up at "the fresh loaf" website and saw some pretty yummy looking pictures. I might look into it ...but not till I'm finished reading "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David.

I tried Desem several times in my breadmaking years, but never really quite understood it - now we are on much better terms! It's so simple - sometimes authors make the simplest things so much more complicated than they need to be - (Bread Bakers Apprentice comes to mind) - I mean, forget it - once they start talking scientifically and mathematically...AAAAACK!

Remember: Laurel Robertson and Thom Leonard - Authors. Not too mathematic or scientific...
And Elizabeth David!

Cecelia
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  #12  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:51 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Sourdough

Hi Cecilia!

Have you tried King Arthur White Whole Wheat (I presume you have access to it)? I have been using it a lot in whole wheat style breads. Has essentially the nutritional content of whole wheat but has less of the reddish pigment that supposedly gives whole wheat its somewhat "bitter" taste. I like it for near 100% whole wheat breads.

For low whole wheat (like the 5% WW I posted pictures of yesterday), I prefer to grind the grain immediately before mixing the dough. It seems to have more volatile aromatics that way. I have never tried to make enough flour for a whole loaf of home-ground whole wheat though!

From your comments I take it you are allergic to baker'e percentages???? I have too many bread books now. Maybe I can find a copy of one of those three at a library!

Thanks!
Jay
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  #13  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough

yeah - you could say I'm allergic to baker's percentages!
I am learning, as far as yeast and salt go...how much yeast per pound of flour and then how much salt and then it changes for how long you want to leave it alone, etc etc...but that makes more sense to me than bakers' percentages.

I grind my own wheat - King Arthur, as good as it seems to be...is way out of our price range! I use only unbleached bread and all purpose in my baking and I prefer pillsbury or gold medal...or a more local brand, but will use kroger. Sorry - not very prestigeous, I know...but I have used King Arthur and, well, couldn't tell a difference!!!
But, like I said, I grind my own wheat and other grains - and I make great Whole wheat desem and whole wheat regular (sandwich - peanut butter and jelly style) bread - no white flour. Actually, the recipe...oh, I'm sorry...FORMULA...in Bread Bakers' Apprentice for 100% whole wheat bread is what I use - with freshly ground hard red winter wheat (Bronze chief from wheat montana)- I always get nice light loaves with a nice crumb - not crumbly and falling apart....
Everyone likes it but I LOVE the desem, and if I'm gonna eat bread, that's the bread of choice!

I suppose if I studied harder the percentages and stuff...I might get it. But you can't teach an old dog new tricks!
Besides, I'm supposed to be out there finishing up my oven floor!

Cecelia
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  #14  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:49 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough

Thanks for the comments!

For whatever reason, I can buy KA bread flour for only about 40 cents a bag more than anything else. I would agree that my experiments with Gold Medal and other brands are USUALLY no more than marginally different. (A couple of bad experiences with one house brand has left me with a few scars tho!) So I use KA. I find it has consistency perhaps more than a quality uniqueness.

The white whole wheat is interesting. It is the grain that is different and I have heard that it can be purchased sometimes. Watch for it!

You are convincing me I should perhaps get out my earplugs and fire up my mill and make a real batch of whole wheat flour. As you know the fresh flour is magic!

The biggest advantage of BP IMO is simply to allow scaling up/down in volume and for dealing with different hydration starters. If you are pretty standardized on your batch size (and I am guessing you are) there really isn't much advantage!

Thanks!
Jay

Bake On!
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  #15  
Old 09-10-2009, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough

Yeah, about 5 years ago Walmart carried KA all purpose for a small amount higher than the usual stuff and I used to get it. Then they quit carrying it and it was way too much at the grocery stores.
And you know what? Just in the past month, I have not been able to get Pillsbury unbleached at Walmart, and they only have a tiny little space for Gold Medal unbleached - but they have shelves and shelves of "Great Value" all purpose - bleached only! AND this other stuff that LOOKS very nice called Eagle Mills unbleached ultragrain - something like that - it's a combination of unbleached wheat flour and 100% ultragrain..."looks like white, tastes like white and bakes like white" - Sam's tried carrying it a while back, too. Can anyone tell me about "ultragrain"? I think it must be some genetically modified grain to appease the masses!

And speaking of flours - what is the Italian flour like - the "00" - ???? I really would love to try it out with pizza!

Cecelia
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  #16  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:05 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough

That Eagle Mills flour is a 70% white 30% "ultragrain" blend. The "ultragrain" is not GMO, but is a specially bred variety of wheat that has a special milling process to grind up the fiber and germ much finer than normal. It was developed by ConAgra--the very name sends shivers down my spine.
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  #17  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough

So what's the difference between GMO and specially bred?
I'm with you about ConAgra.
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  #18  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:35 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough

Thanks for the info, David!

Cecilia, I meant to comment on 00. While I don't get too excited about bread flour or AP (other than bleaching), 00 is a bit different. If absolutely pressed and being 100% straight, I would state that I feel I can make dough that tastes just as good or better with AP or bread flour. (The key IMO lies far more in the retarding than in the flour.) The texture of 00 is pretty different. Super extensible and silky. It lends itself to light, bubbly crusts that are crisp on the outside and creamy on the inside. My local VPN pizza place uses 00 and I can get all I want easily. (Well there are no VPN certified pizzarias in OK, MO, KA, NB so no help.) With love you can come awfully close with AP if you follow Reinharts Neopolitan dough formula. Will never be the same but...much closer to 00 than to commercial dough. Better to spend a little extra money on good olive oil (Costco's house brand is a steal in the 2 liter IMO) than to sweat the flour difference. WRT pizza dough, there seems to be quite a following for blended AP and bread flour dough - you might want to try that too. Key in any case is a high hydration dough. More like a focaccia or ciabbata dough than a bread dough!

My pizzaria friend makes Pane Pugliese from 00 and I think it is a bit of overkill. I actually prefer the crumb and crust I get from regular AP dough. And I am working with him to make a partially sourdough Pugliese! It's the kind of thing that "everyone has their preferences and biases" AP and 00 are, I think, arguably more different than better or worse than... Still, I use 00 for pizza. I like the texture and crust.

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #19  
Old 09-10-2009, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough

GMO tinkers with the DNA in a laboratory. Specially bred tinkers with the DNA in a field by cross-breeding and selecting for desired traits.
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  #20  
Old 09-10-2009, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough

Aha. But I still am wary (is that the correct word) the the ultragrain!

Jay, thanks for all that info on 00 flour. I have made the pizza using AP (on stones in my regular ovens) and I changed my recipe from the BBA to one I got, supposedly from Naples.
I like the "Naples" one better - much less yeast is used, and people say it's better. Is it the flour? Is it the lesser amount of yeast? Or is it (GASP) - the LESS hydration from BBA?!!! I don't know!

c
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