#71  
Old 03-27-2010, 10:30 AM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
That helps, Nikki!

A lot of people feed at a 2 to 1 rate - i.e. taking 100 grams of starter and adding 100 of flour and 100 of water. That would take a bit longer - about overnight (from 6-7 pm to about 7 am) to peak with my starter if I left it out.

(As an aside when baking bread, I take my 200 grams of starter and put 100 in a bowl. I feed the 100 in the jar as described above and do a 4X expansion in the bowl, adding 200 of water and 200 of flour (usually 100 of fresh ground whole wheat and 100 of flour). That sits out over night and is usually peaking about 7 am. That is then expanded 4X to the final hydration of around 70 % (about 1200 or flour and 800 of water to the 500 grams in the bowl). Knead and fold. Form boules at about 3 hours and bake about 3 hours later (with timing very much depending on the temperature!)

Hope that is helpful!
Jay
Thanks for the info Jay.

I've just got back from a quick trip and took my starter out of the fridge yesterday. I have fed it 3 times since then and it is looking good.

Have a few friends over tomorrow lunch and I have slapped together the 100, 200, 200 formula you have provided.

Just quick question - when do I add salt (and possibly some Instant yeast) before I bake a loaf and what ratios?

What temp & time should they be baked at?

Thanks again - just getting my mind back into the baking game again!!!
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  #72  
Old 03-27-2010, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

Welcome home! Hope your trip was everything you wanted.

And bet your starter was glad to see you!

The salt is added in the final expansion. The numbers I quote are a bit high - give a 72% hydration which is a bit much for most people and most flours.

First night at say 6 or 7 pm take 100 grams of starter and 200 grams of water and 200 of flour. Mix and leave out overnight. Next morning (ideally the yeast will be peaking) add about 1150 grams of flour and 850 of water and about 45-50 of salt. You will have 2.5 kilos of dough - or enough for about 4 small boules or 2-3 bigger ones. The schedule should be about right. If the final dough is on the wet side I may fold at 30 and 60 minutes. Otherwise I usually poke it down at an hour. Form loaves at about 3 hours and bake when it is ready....I like it underproofed so usually aroung 3-4 hours after forming.

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #73  
Old 03-27-2010, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hello Jay ... thanks very much - yes, arrived home Friday and still feeling a bit jet lagged. Rushing around this morning (Sunday) and trying to get everything ready for some people who are coming for lunch.

Recipe makes sense - will give it a go and maybe do some bread after the pizzas are done.

What temp do I need to use for the baking proces?
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  #74  
Old 03-28-2010, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

First attempt
==========

I guessed the temp (290 start - 240 end) to cook the loaves at and I think I miscalculated. The loaves were very doughey and didn't rise very well (should they rise the same as IDY?).

There was a distinct "sour" flavour which was good and I think I will have better results next time with a higher temp.
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Last edited by heliman; 03-28-2010 at 03:59 AM.
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  #75  
Old 03-28-2010, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

Your starting oven temp looks okay and the crumb texture looks pretty good but I get the impression they are either severely underproofed or somewhat overproofed and way underbaked IMO. You don't mention the internal temp and I bake my sourdough to about 209 degrees F (98.5 degrees C) The crust is IMO way too light. I think you need more time more than a hotter oven.

While your starting oven temps is pretty normal the finishing temp is disturbingly low leading me to suspect you didn't really heat load the oven (i.e. you fired only until the oven cleared and didn't continue heating the oven. The oven temp should drop when you put the bread in and then rise back up to fairly close to the starting temp by the end of hte bake as stored heat is released back to the oven. You lost 100 degrees from the beginning to the finish - and that is larger than it should be. The oven temp should be within 20 to 25 degrees C of the starting temp at the end of the bake. (though every oven will be a bit different and temp will vary with batch size.)

Being underbaked, the bread will be better if you toast slices or put bigger chunks in an oven at 170 C or so for fifiteen minutes to dry freshen the crust and dry it a bit.

I am going to guess the dough was underproofed because it would tend to have bigger bubbles if it were over. IF that is right, you simply misguaged the proofing and needed to go longer - probably an hour and a half to two and a half hours. OTOH, if it was overproofed then it was probably only an hour or so. (Underproofed loaves tend to burst and that is the one facet missing in my "underproofed theory". What was your proofing temp?

Glad you got good flavor - you should because that is (in my experience) a near optimal expansion schedule for flavor.

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #76  
Old 06-29-2011, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Rossco or Jay, I need your help:
I ignored my Sourdough Starter for a few months too many and on my return from a 2 week cruise, found my SD Starter dried out and greenish in the back of the fridge oops.

So, I've got to make up a starter again and it's been a few years. Rossco, did you use Pineapple Juice for your last SD starter liquid?

I've been reading posts & blogs all morning and although I've used organic grapes in the past, these posts say that using the available bacteria/yeasts on grapes (or raisins or cabbage) is not the final bacteria that wheat flours create so I should forego them and just use flour. The key would be to stir it up 2-3 times a day and to try to refresh it at its peak. Peter Reinharts books and blog use straight flour with or without pineapple juice.

Has anyone had any success recently making a sourdough starter?

Thanks, Dino
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  #77  
Old 06-29-2011, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Dino!

Hard, dried, and green suggest more than two weeks of abuse!

It can probably be rescued but rescuing it MAY be as much trouble as starting from scratch.

To rescue....wash the solids..i.e. rinse the remains with water. Don't wash it away...but keep the whitish residue and add some water and flour to feed it. (say a 4 to one ratio 1 part "paste", 2 parts water, and 2 parts flour by weight. You will probably do better if you use whole wheat or rye flour for now. The "paste" will have the bacteria and yeast you had before and they can "jump start" the process.

To start from scratch, it is basically foolproof if you don't use chlorinated water. It will EVENTUALLY work almost no matter what. It is simplest with rye flour (more beasties and nutrients than wheat flour) or whole wheat (same relative to white flour). Mix it up 50/50 by weight (or volume at first - it doesn't matter) and feed it at 2 to one (1 part to 1 part to 1 part for about five days or more later...) You don't need much 25 grams of flour and 25 of water are plenty to begin with. 10 grams will work. If you do it this way in about one to three days it will bubble pretty aggressively which is bacteria - and not the bacteria you want. About two/three days later they will drop the pH to the point where they will begin to shut down and the bubbling will slow/stop. Far too many newbies to sourdough get way too excited about this early action and decide it dies and throw it out. NO! Keep feeding it!. Take only part of the "starter" if it gets too big. Again, you don't really need much. About two days later - maybe longer - you will start getting bubbles again as the good bacteria and acid tolerant wild yeast you want start to take over the starter. At that point go to feeding twice a day and increase the feeding to 4 to one (1 part starter to 2 water to 2 of flour).. All of this is at room temp! Feed it for at least a week more before trying to use it. It should be doubling within 12 hours. It will continue to get more robust for some time. Keeping it at room temp for a month or more is not stupid. It will help the starter develop. Once it is leavening well you can start refrigerating it if you want.

You can begin your starter with pineapple juice instead of water (and you can feed it with either pineapple juice or water for the first two days) if you want to. Pineapple juice is adequately acid to be hostile to the first burst of "bad" bacteria. So there is no flurry of bubbling around day 2-3. Some think it speeds up the process but...I question it for the wild yeast and the "good" bacteria are multiplying along with the "bad" ones. In any case it doesn't make much difference. Both work!

Your message is a good reminder to people to take part of their starter and smear it on a piece of was paper and dry it out. Then freeze it.

Don't be afraid to try to rescue your starter chip. It can probably be done fairly easily.

Good Luck!
Jay

Last edited by texassourdough; 06-29-2011 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Add pineapple juice comment.
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  #78  
Old 06-29-2011, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Dino - yes, I used pineapple juice to start mine. It' s been dead a long while though!
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  #79  
Old 06-30-2011, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Sorry about your dead starter Rossco. Congradulations on becomming an "Il Pizzaiolo". Your title is greatly deserved as I've enjoyed your cooking/baking on the forum.

Jay, this year has flown by so fast and I did forget about my starter since the begging of the year . I already tossed it out so I can't resuscitate it. I WILL freeze some from now on. I've got my annual pizza-pool party coming up in a month and I'm caught without a starter for pizza bases.

So, I mixed up my 50/50 batch by weight this morning using new stone-ground whole wheat and bottled water. In 1-3 days I should see bubbling. When the bubbling begins to die down and flatten, is that when I begin the twice-daily "feeding"? I'll feed it twice a day for about a week with the 4 to 1 ratio (twice the flour/h20 to base which is normal).

If I keep this part up for a week (assuming it's lively and smells nice) do you think I can change the feeding to AP flour at that point? I've got 5 weeks until I bake and I want it robust.

Scarlett O'Hara said it best: "As God is my witness, I'll never leave my SD Starter to go hungry again!" I've humbly learned my lesson.

Thanks-Dino
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Yes...wrt feeding but it is really a bit more complicated than that. Telling people how to feed is kind of tricky. You actually want the bad bacteria to do their thing and make the starter more acidic, so feeding dilutes the acid and arguably slows the process at first. Thus feeding early on has some pretty negative effects. Still it should probably be refreshed at least every other day. And it should bubble vigorously at some point but won't smell yeasty. At that point you definitely should go to at least once a day. That activity is the bad bacteria. Their slowing tells you that the acid level is reaching their tolerance. Once they are in decline you can begin feeding and not prolong their activity much...But you don't have to be aggressive in going to twice a day. Once a day is probably enough until you start getting activity again. (Yeah, I know, I am somewhat contradicting my other instructions, but the first set was laid out to give a simpler version - and it will work.) I would personally just go from one 2 to 1 feeding a day (during the first bubbling session) to one 4 to 1 feeding (1 plus 2 water plus 2 flour) daily once the bubbling mostly stops. And to twice a day once the activity picks back up. If you feed too much you simply dilute your beasties and they have a hard time increasing population. If you don't feed enough the right populations have a hard time taking over.

With five weeks you should have plenty of time. And there are plenty of good nonSD recipes so you can survive either way. Do you want me to send you some starter??? (I bet you can find some if you ask around!)

Hang in there!
Jay

Last edited by texassourdough; 07-02-2011 at 07:12 AM. Reason: typos
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