#11  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:30 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

Tupperware should be fine. It doesn't have to be sealed. Organic rye is a good start.

Hang in there and try again if you need to. While rye is often a better starting medium than wheat...try half rye and half whole wheat if you do it again. You will have a bigger variety of microbes to get started with and perhaps one or more of them will take off.

But..assuming your starter doesn't stink yet, it SHOULD eventually take off now that you are stirring it!

Good Luck!
Jay
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:53 AM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Thanks Jay ... your post just reminded me to top up the brew..

In adding more flour/juice I noticed a whole lot of bubbles and a slight yeasty smell. Something is definitely happening!

Will check again tomorrow ...

Rossco

PS - Just wondering why the recipe suggests that you throw away all but a 1/4 cup of the starter. Any idea??

Here is the recipe: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233

Last edited by heliman; 11-01-2009 at 06:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:26 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

You throw some away because if you keep feeding it you will soon need a vat the size of a football stadium and half of the Australian wheat production for the next feeding (and the one after that would be impossible!) )

More seriously, you don't have a healthy, established biota yet. There are probably some baddies in the mix at this time so you don't want to eat it (so no sourdough pancakes) (Would it make you sick - almost certainly not but...it might not taste very good either). You are currently striving to get the good bacteria and yeast to take over. No need to do that in a large batch which would simply waste flour and yeild a huge blob of starter.

I only maintain about a half cup of mother starter. I use about half to start my bread and feed the other half to keep it going. You don't need a lot of starter unless you are baking large batches or like to use it in pancakes and other stuff for flavor.

Glad it is working - at last!
Jay
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:36 AM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Update
=====

Stirred the mix down this evening and added:

1/4 cup of the home brew
1/4 cup plain flour
1/4 cup bottled water

Will add the same tomorrow.

Do I have to keep adding the water/flour for the next week or so? Do I understand this correctly - this starter brew will keep indefinitely if I add water/flour and I can just add a quantity of the mix to a sourdough recipe instead of yeast when baking?

TIA

Rossco
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-02-2009, 06:32 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hi Rossco!

Couple of comments. You are making a really high hydration starter. There are several standards, stiff starter (around 70 percent hydration), balanced (100 percent), and wet starters. The way you are feeding you will have a 166% starter. You will need to know the hydration and take the water in the starter into account when you "design" your recipe. A 166% starter is so wet it won't typically show a lot of bubbles or "grow" like a dryer starter.

I do 100%. About 1 cup of flour and 2/3 cup of water (ratio) - using a scale is a BIG help. The equal amounts of flour and water make calculations easier.

Wetter starters tend to be less acidic. Dryer starters more so. If you want SF style sour bread you will want a drier starter.

IF kept at room temp the starter should be fed twice a day. IF you bake every day, you should divide the starter and feed the part you will keep and leave it out for about eight hours, then into the fridge until the next day's mixing. (I do a first expansion for the dough that sits out overnight on the counter and bake first thing in the morning. At 75 degrees I use a 4X expansion. I.e. I take 100 grams of starter and add 200 grams of flour and 200 grams of water and mix and that sits out overnight. At 68 degrees I drop to a 3X expansion and add only 150 grams of flour and 150 of water in recognition the yeast won't reproduce as fast.) If you bake only once a week the starter should sit out for about an hour and can then be put in the fridge until you want it - up to about two weeks.

At some point you will start getting hooch (pale yellow/brown liquid on top of the starter. That is alcohol and an indication you should feed the starter (whether you make bread or not). It is not critical to feed immediately, but... the health of your starter will be in decline at that point. Don't go more than two to three weeks without feeding or the starter will get weak and will risk dying or will require one or more feedings to simply get it healthy enough to use again. (Doing this you want to keep it out on the counter and feed it every eight hours or so.)

Hang in there! You are getting close!
Jay
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-02-2009, 01:42 PM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Hello Jay - thanks for that detail..

As mentioned, I am following this recipe: Wild Yeast Sourdough Starter | The Fresh Loaf

Are you saying that it will not work? If so, how can I fix what I have already made. I am on day 5 - as per the recipe that is "repeat of Day 4" which wants me to add:

1/4 cup plain flour
1/4 cup bottled water

Don't really want to throw away what I have made if it can be saved.

Any suggestions?

Rossco

PS: I have just checked the brew - it is bubbling nicely and had some brown, watery substance underneath the foam. Gave it a stir and it seems to be looking OK.

Last edited by heliman; 11-02-2009 at 02:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:18 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

The wet starter works fine, it's just not as sour as if it were lower hydration. (Wetter favors yeast, drier favors bacteria so you get more acid and sourer).

It sounds like you now have a fully functional sourdough starter. All you need to feed it is water and flour. Normal proportions are doubling to tripling the volume with each feed (more means you don't have to feed quite so often!) It is NOT however as likely to be as good as it will get. Your first batches are likely to be slow rising and that will improve as the dominant yeast takes over and kicks out lesser bugs. Flavor will probably improve for months (mine changed slowly for close to a year!).

The liquid you see is hooch indicating it wants to be fed more flour!

There is nothing wrong with having a liquid starter but 166% is on the high side IMO. All you have to do to change the hydration is feed it a few times at the new hydration and it will quickly become "close enough" to the target. Ditto, don't worry about having white, whole wheat, or rye starters. If you take your regular starter - whatever it is based on - and expand it 4X in the preferment stage and then 4X to the final dough, the original flour/rye will only be about 5% of the final dough weight and 5% is no big deal (I add 5% whole wheat to my white breads, 10% rye is nice in lots of white breads, and 5% white flour in pure rye or whole wheat is no big deal either so long as you aren't selling it and claiming it is 100% rye or whole wheat.

You are doing fine but you should probably go to feeding twice a day if you are getting brown liquid!

Bravo!
Jay
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:05 PM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

Thanks Jay ...

So - If I now go 1 cup flour and 2/3 cup water for tonights feed... will that be ok?

The brew is being left on the counter top (not fridge) at this point - is that still OK? When do I need to put it in the fridge??

BTW I am happy to wait a while before using the starter - there is no rush.

I appreciate the feedback Jay- amazing to think that I thought that this whole process had to be done each time one did some baking!! There is probably a "sourdough starter 101" but I must have missed it...

Rossco
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:28 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

I would go to the 1 cup flour & 2/3 cup water. It will give you a starter that is sort of like the old white library paste of the past. It will have roughly equal weights of water and flour and that will ultimately make your bread making much easier IMO.(And I am an engineer and math is NOT a problem but having the starter be balanced makes everything else trivial).


I would suggest keeping it out and feeding it twice a day (assuming it gets rambunctiously foamy/frothy) for a few days. At that point it will really be ready to use. (and you may be there now!). If it isn't peaking (by that I mean expanding (foaming up) and beginning to collapse within say ten hours it is still a bit puny to use. Your goal, when making bread, is to do the second expansion at the point where the volume is peaking and the yeast is at maximum activity. I have not used superwet starters but it is my understanding they usually don't expand so telling when they are peaking can be tricky. Another reason to use a drier hydration.

Sounds like you will be ready to do bread theis weekend perhaps! I am going to suggest you do it INDOORS. Until you know your yeast it is way too hard to anticipate when the bread will be ready.

If you don't have a scale, you really should get one if possible. A scale that does 11 pounds with 5 gram accuracy is really helpful. I recently got a second that does about a pound and a half with .1 gram accuracy for doing additives. Really nice!

I will send you a bread recipe in a separate reply so it is contained.
Jay
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-02-2009, 05:45 PM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: Sour Dough Starter...

More excellent info - thanks Jay...

OK will go for the suggested mix then and see how it goes. Will feed before and after work which should cover the 2 x daily requirement.

I have three digital scales at the moment for different applications. I bought one of these great machines recently: SaveOnScales.com - MyWeigh KD-8000 Professional Table-Top, Multi-Purpose Digital Scale with Baker's Function. It is brilliant and has a Baker's percentage feature which is really good as well. The smaller scale does the .1 gram and I use it for yeast/salt etc.

While on the topic of measuring devices, I bought one of these babies last week: Pro High Temperature Non-Contact Thermometer - Jaycar Electronics
Probably a bit of overkill as it goes from -58 - 1832°F. Got a good deal on it and am very happy with the performance.

So, looks like some action ahead this weekend on the baking front. Would be good to make a quick loaf so any recipes would be welcomed.

Rossco
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Perfect Pizza Dough by Weight james Pizza 165 08-11-2013 08:26 PM
Problem with high hydration dough shaping giambra Pizza 18 10-08-2009 05:10 AM
How to Make a Long (20-24 Hour), Room-Temperature Fermented Dough Gollimari Pizza 3 08-24-2009 03:55 PM
Starter and bread formulas/methods Ed_ Hearth Bread and Flatbread 37 09-16-2008 05:12 PM
One day ambient temperature prefermented pizza dough arevalo53anos Pizza 4 11-01-2007 02:39 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
© 2006/10 Forno Bravo, LLC