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  #11  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:59 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

This is a picture of "A" out of the fridge. My points of interest for both loaves are;

I would usually use the word concern, but this is an experiment and the chickens next door will enjoy what's not worthy.


Was the 90 minutes of proofing plus whatever cooldown period sufficent for "B"?
Is the above plus warming at 80F for 90 minutes sufficent for "A"?
Will the loaves release from the brotforms?
and then the other areas of interest about flavor, crumb and crust..


---

Noted condition of "A" after removing it from the fridge is that the exposed dough is dryer. I don't know how or if this is going to be a problem, it sure could. I used a plastic bag to contain both loaves for both the initual proofing and in the fridge. "A" is now resting in my proofer at 80F with additional humididy.

---

At 90 minutes "A" is still cold to the touch and I haven't seen the growth that I know the dough needs, so I'll add an hour.

---

At 2 hours I'm seeing better growth. So, next time rather than proof for 90 minutes before putting the dough to bed, I'll go just short of full proof.

---

Shots 2-4 are A and B side by side after 2.5 hours. "A" is far more plyable and "B", because of the cold, is tight. I don't expect much spring from "B" due to it's lack of proper proofing.


Chris

PS "A" is always on the left of "B" this is consistent throughout.
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Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-postretard.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-ab.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-ab2.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-ab3.jpg  

Last edited by SCChris; 10-27-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2012, 11:48 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

Post bake comparisons.

499g vs 505g,

Although “A” at 499g is 5% or 10% larger, I’m surprised by the spring on “B” at 505g. I had expected the difference to be more like 20%. The tight crust of “B” shows in the near blowout of the slash.
The crumb photos will follow.

C
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Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-anb.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-anb2.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-b.jpg   Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves-bend.jpg  


Last edited by SCChris; 10-27-2012 at 11:52 AM.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2012, 12:01 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

Note the tighter crumb is some areas of "B", on the right. Also note the direction of the spring indicated by the pattern of holes.

As for taste, I think that "A" has a bit more nut aspect to the crust and "B" has a simpler profile. I've tried both side by side 3 times and the flavors are very close in my mind and palet. The profiles may be more distinct if all of the proofing is pre fridge and then these loaves are then seperated by a 90 minute proof.



Chris
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Last edited by SCChris; 10-27-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 10-29-2012, 08:48 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

What I take away from this is the understanding of the viscosity difference, for lack of a better term, of the dough due to temperature. Jay as you mentioned, the colder dough seems to hold CO2 to a higher level when compared to the warm dough, this seems to be why “B” expanded so vigorously through the slash. The viscosity and activity changes do seem to affect how the crumb develops. I’m sure that when refrigerated the proofing of the shaped loaf continues internally as the outside stops and become more viscous, tighter. I bet that this contains the growth and to a degree contains the CO2. Conversely, when the dough is thawed, the warming dough on the outside becomes more flexible and lively. The time to bring the whole loaf to temp and some level of activity is significant and while this is happening the leavening is not homogenous. I don’t know how the differences during cooling and warming can’t make a difference in the crumb.

All of this said, I also don’t know that there isn’t a place for cooling and baking. The advantage is that the bake can happen when the oven hits the target temp at some significantly later time. Even if the bread is not tip top it’s still better than any supermarket and may so called bakeries..

Taste difference in my mind is a question to be answered. Logically, by retarding, warming, shaping and proofing, more sugars are available to the sourdough leavening community as are flavor benefits. I think I’d rather focus on the flavor made available by retarding and or pre-fermenting.

Chris
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  #15  
Old 10-29-2012, 09:10 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

Nice experiment, Chris! I tend to think you were a bit more underproofed than is ideal. Probably need longer before the retard if you are to bake straight from the fridge, but...crumb looks pretty good. You are definitely right about the retard and crumb...The center of a loaf will get at least an hour more proofing before it gets cold enough to slow down. Warming up can at least partially compensate (as the outside warms up and the yeast reactivates but that is where my starter is not so good. It never seems to really want to go again.... And as I tried to suggest, the cold dough straight from the refrigerator often gives great oven spring (due to the high level of dissolved CO2) but it can "erupt as the dough is slow to expand due to its stiffness. Yours looks pretty good to me. Both!

The level of freckle bubbles is surprisingly similar in the two loaves. It seems that once you get the CO2 concentration high in the dough it has a hard time migrating fast enough to not form freckles. I was expecting the from the fridge loaf to show more freckling.

One thing that surprises me a bit about your approach is that it seems you are doing a single stage expansion (no preexpansion of the starter before the final mix). In my experiment that can work fairly well so long as the starter is in kick butt mode. But if it gets a little slow it can really bite you (But it may also be you did an expansion to get the 200 you used in the final mix so I could be misreading your process).

Oh... you are probably right that the retarded loaves have more sugar. This is complex but yeast (sugar eaters) slow more than the enzymes (sugar makers) so there is at least a chance. It is my impression that bacteria (sugar eaters) generally slow less than yeast so there is a chance you get a bread with a bit more residual sugar and more acid depending many facts (temp, speed of cooling, your starter, etc.) The longer time definitely gives the enzymes more time to create flavenoids and the colder temps slow their release from the dough so more flavor is certainly to be expected for a given level of proofing (yeast development). (Which is why Reinhart arrived at his retard approach for breadmaking.

Good job!
Jay
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  #16  
Old 10-29-2012, 09:28 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

Jay, regarding the starter, I had been feeding it in expectation of doing a couple of WW/Rye boules, so it was going strong at the time of final mix. I would have built up the volume starter, but the starter was there and just about spot on, so..

I have a huge amount of respect for village bakers, to be able to react to all of the weather aspects, flour aspects, and all of the rest.. To be really good at baking, day after day..

Chris

PS regarding underproofed, Absolutely. I don't know if I could have pushed "A" another 60 minutes but maybe. And I wonder if I had pushed the pre-fridge proof from 90 minutes to 2.5 hours where the crumb would go. I see the distribution of large holes in the pre "mouse hole" stage and I'd bet that the additional time would have pushed the crumb to this stage.

Last edited by SCChris; 10-29-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-29-2012, 07:17 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

Good comments, Chris!

Based on your background (and the look of the loaves) I was confident the starter was "smoking". But I felt I should mention it because others will try to follow you with indequately robust starter and ...we know the pancake they may make!

Village bakers are an interesting breed. Especially somewhere like Genzano where there have been roughly a dozen bakers making the same (actually similar more than same) bread for 4 or 5 hundred years. They don't weigh things - much like Chad in the old video. He just mixes it and...the touch compensates for temp and humidity and flour and....! Hard to believe sometimes!

You are probably right on the mouseholes. A challenge to retards is that the bulk fermentation tends to get reduced and the final proof vastly elongated and that can lead to mouse holes. One of the reasons I have gotten away from retards is I tend to get strange crumb patterns which I have blamed on my wild yeast. It could be that it is more the forming/timing, but I find my retards often have largish holes (like yours) with a matrix that is too dense. Tastes good. Is not bad bread. But it isn't the epitome of what I value so I tend to not do it. OTOH, I have grown jaded by the crumb of my 72 % hydration loaves and I need to step up to a higher hydration to get the crumb I want. But I know to do that I have to change my habits and habits die hard so...one of hte reasons I am not baking much righ tnow is I am not very happy with my bread.... (Not that it is bad, but more that my ambitions have risen!

To that end, we were in NYC Fri thru Sunday (and due to be there through tomorrow - Tuesday) but we elected to jump ship and go home to avoid Sandy). We ended up not doing any of the pizzarias I had planned to hit but we did get to Amy's in Chelsea Market. Kudos to Amy's. They make FINE bread. Wonderful crumb and texture. We bought an oat, walnut, raisin bread that was truly exceptional. Well worth checking out if you are in NYC!
Jay
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  #18  
Old 10-30-2012, 03:02 PM
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 235
Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

Thanks for being the first man up the ladder at the castle siege, Chris. I asked around about the blistering observed on your crust and got the answer to retard the shaped loaves. Good to see it works, especially with the higher hydration dough you use. I was being told to use a lower hydration dough.

I tried cold retarding the bulk ferment this weekend (was going to retard the loaves, but I was too tired to shape Saturday night, so the bulk went into the fridge). I can't say how well they turned out because my oven was too hot (my IR gun was reading strangely, so I had to wing it) and turned 5 of the 9 loaves into charcoal on the bottom. Tops looked good, but the burned flavor permeated them and I chucked them.
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2012, 06:54 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

azatty, regarding chucking you loaves, you need a neighbor with chickens.

Chris
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  #20  
Old 10-31-2012, 07:39 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Question about retarding shaped sourdough loaves

New Motto!

"Will bake for eggs!"

****

Baked yesterday and our humidity was REALLY dry and fouled me up a bit. I will be uploading some educational photos. One of the breads I made was a 4 pound loaf of 20% Rye with walnuts that should be pretty spectacular when I get to cut it open. Will comment on this when I have the crumb shots!

Jay
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