Proofing - raising questions???? Hearth Bread and Flatbread Discuss Proofing - raising questions???? in the Brick Oven Cooking forums; Originally Posted by james I need more muscles. You need a bigger mixer! I am loving the SP-5! I go ...

[DrakeRemoray]

Originally Posted by james

I need more muscles.

You need a bigger mixer! I am loving the SP-5!

I go for moderate gluten development and then fold during fermentation, that seems to be working our really well, and I still get my hands in the dough.

Also are you using a preferment at all?

Drake

[CanuckJim]

James,

The question of whether to let retarded loaves warm up was posted a fair bit previously. However, I think you'll find that straight from the fridge to the hearth works best. That way, when the hearth is ready, the bread is ready. A lot fewer timing issues to deal with. Also, it's much easier to dock cold dough than warm. Jeffrey Hamelman points out that the difference between a 40 degree F loaf and a 60 degree loaf hitting a 500 degree hearth is minimal in the scheme of things. It MIGHT add a minute to the bake time, but no more than that. I'm really finding that cold doughs result in better caramelization of the grain sugars on the crust.

Having said that, there are many opinions out there about this question. Nancy Silverton recommends letting the loaves come up to 58 F before baking. I've tried it, but juggling both the oven and the loaf temps is crazy making. Not only that, but you risk overfermented loaves if your timing isn't perfect.

Jim

[james]

Thanks Jim,

Very helpful. Drew, I haven't been doing a pre-ferment -- but I will start. That's a good idea. The last time I made the same formula a number of days in a row, I was trying to eliminate variables, which really helped.

I think I am ready to add the preferment.

That would mean one day or preferment, mixing and a bulk rise, boule shaping and an overnight proof. Should be good.

Does that sound like a good schedule?
James

[DrakeRemoray]

All of the recipes I am currently using that have an overnight proof/retardation in the fridge don't have any commercial yeast at all...

The preferment ones, that start with a commercial yeast, have you making the preferment the previous day, but then making the dough, bulk rising, shaping and proofing on day two...

I guess I would be worried about the commercial yeast over fermenting in the fridge overnight...

[CanuckJim]

Drake, James,

Retarding doughs made with commercial yeast can be tricky, because you usually have to reduce the amount of yeast by somewhere around a half. Otherwise, it will overferment.

I'd suggest trying Hamelman's 5-grain bread. It's made with commercial yeast, but the formula is designed to allow for retardation at the bulk stage. You do have to deflate the dough several times as it cools, though.

Jim

[nissanneill]

It really does pay to ask questions here!!!
Proof positive. I took your advice and made up the dough on saturday night ata round 9-10 pm and left it to proof on the dining room table (a room rarely used and not heated), The picture shows the rewsults of the 2 spicy bun mix in the blue containers, a multigrain and German multigrain behing them and a double Russell Jeavons white bread recipe in the bowl behind those. I checked the temp on arising sunday am (well around 8.00 am and it was 15°C.Next time, I will proof them in the fridge as I feel that they over proofed, but they shaped up and cooked fine. The German multigrain was still a little dense and rather heavy but that could be the very nature of the beast.
I was a little impatient with the first bake (visitors about to leave), and put them in at 750°F for 10 minutes. The buns got a little burnt on their bases but tasted great hot, straight out of the oven with butter dripping from them liberally. Hot rolls for lunch.... what could be better!
I let the oven cool down, but left the coals in there and cooked the second batch with the help of a few water sprays to increase the humidity.
I used tins and trays (wife's insistance) but did one piece directly on the floor.
Have a few ideas to try next bake.

Neill

[Dutchoven]

Good job! You got nice volume on them, colors are good. From here you will continue to fine tune all the factors involved. Juggling the balls of oven temperature, final proof and all will get easier as you go. I think you are well on the way.
My best to you!
Dutch

[CanuckJim]

Neill,

You are definitely getting there. German breads by definition are heavier and more dense than other forumulas; it's a sort of national marque. This has to do not only with the weight of the whole grains used (rye, eg), but also the fact that rye and whole wheat do not have the gluten percentage of bread flour.

The ideal temperature for retardation is 40 degrees Fahrenheit. That's fairly normal for North American fridges. At that temp, you can leave the dough for as long as 18 hours. At 50 degrees, it shouldn't retard for more than about 8 hours. These figures are for wild yeast/sourdough breads, but with proper commercial yeast amounts, they would still apply for other formulas.

Personally, I would empty the oven of all coals and ash before baking, then bake directly on the brick with the oven door in place. (Except for pan breads, of course.) This, along with proper steam, will produce maximum spring/volume. The steam should be vented about halfway through the bake to allow the crust to develop.

Your photographs of the bulk dough do suggest they are verging on over-fermented, so a drop in temp would help. If you're converting a commercial yeast/one-day bread to the retardation technique, try cutting the commercial yeast back by about half.

Jim

[nissanneill]

Thanks for that guys,
I value your input.
Jim, I plan next time to reduce the yeast slightly and to proof in the fridge which runs at 4°C or 39°F. It is easier to do the night before rather than have to rush it all on the day.
I will remove the coals *(didn't this time as I have yet to get a steel bin and plastic doesn't appreciate the heat) and sweep out the hearth as I normally do. I do want to try to get a slight (very slight) smokey tast to the bread as I did a couple of weeks ago. A real talking point and something different than merely baked in a WFO.
I used a spray bottle to pump in humidity several times but the crusts were more than adequate for our liking.
Had some of the left over buns last night and I got the consumate approval from the very fussy wife. She is slowly coming around and accepting not only the oven but my attempts at a late career start in cooking. All the kids and friends love it and want more. Re-assuring feedback!.

Jim,
not that I'm into difficult challenges, what is this 'wild yeast' that you professional refer to? Is it a culture that you grow for use in your baking? a bit like my mother used to keep for brewing ginger beer many many moons ago?
I was using a live yeast but this last batch I used dry yeast which I now prefer, for obvious reasons. Tossed out the fresh yeast this morning as a result.

Neill

[CanuckJim]

Neill,

Call it a sourdough, a levain, a barm, wild yeast or what have you, they all refer to propogating a culture of the resident airbourne yeast in a particular area. The are about a zillion ways of going about beginning one of these, but there's really no mystery to it. Just create a receptive environment of water and flour, and the yeast and other good bugs will take up residence. It takes a while to do this, but once you've got it, you've got it. The flavour of wild yeast bread beats commercial yeast hollow.

Jim