#51  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:49 AM
Journeyman
 
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Default Re: not quite right...

Oh Jay, if I only understood what your saying.. I hear you, but it doesn't compute. It thought you were SUPPOSED to let it ferment (but you used the word retard)....

I know you said to stick with a basic recipe, and I want to.. I just had these flours and needed to make something
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  #52  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: not quite right...

AZ,

I hadn't thought about that.. I'll try and figure something out... I could put parchment on a pizza screen, and place it on the burners of my stove (gas off of course), but that would allow air under the boulle as well and maybe help?

Either way, I'm going to plan on a longer rise time.
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  #53  
Old 03-09-2011, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: not quite right...

Jay is saying that he does not like to do a cold retard (rise) with his sourdough.
I tend to agree. It can be sketchy even with a starter and dough you know well.

In general, the point of a cold retard (or ferment, if you like that term better) is to develop better flavor, and IME, sourdough doesn't need it. Or at least there is not enough of a flavor benefit to offset the weirdness and extra time it takes to get going again. With IDY doughs, OTOH, it's almost a requirement if you want good flavor.

All of that said, I have/do cold retard my sourdoughs from time to time, and it's a handy card to know how to play for the times when you run into a schedule problem.
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  #54  
Old 03-09-2011, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: not quite right...

Well, I'm just doing ABIF from scratch (no starter), so I'm assuming the dough needs the overnight in the fridge to gain flavor.

Splat-you'll have to give me something to start with (sourdough).. eventually. I need to get this basic stuff down first.


Curious question; how deep do you make the slashes? I usually try for at least a 1/4, maybe 3/8", but I'm think ing i should go even more as the loaves always push them to their max.
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Last edited by Tman1; 03-09-2011 at 03:24 PM. Reason: more clarifying
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  #55  
Old 03-09-2011, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: not quite right...

And if the goal is gringe, in addition to the hydration, state of proof, and slashing, the biggest thing for me is the oven humidity. Even with all the other factors deemed ideal, I had never gotten good gringe in the indoor oven until I started using the cloche/cooker technique. Freestanding on a stone, even humidifying the best I could, I never got really achieved gringe or rip.
In the WFO, I need a fully loaded oven and extra humidification. Even then, I'm not sure I'll ever get as nice a rip/gringe as with the combo cooker technique.
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  #56  
Old 03-09-2011, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: not quite right...

Here's a couple of pics from this bake... I really think that Pampered Chef cookie sheet is not a good option. The bottom of the loaf was still a little doughy, but I hit 205 and my wife needed the oven. I had seen somewhere that I could make a pizza on a screen, do you think that would work, or should I get a proper stone for this?

It looked great going in (at least from what I know).
Attached Thumbnails
not quite right...-188906_1807514700791_1027642220_2184075_3852489_s.jpg   not quite right...-190781_1807601022949_1027642220_2184236_2604672_s.jpg  
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  #57  
Old 03-09-2011, 03:49 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: not quite right...

Hi Tman!

The term retard is used for fermenting in the cold to "retard" the fermentation rate. It works well with IDY (instant yeast) because the enzymes work on the flour longer and develop more flavor compounds and IDY is a quite a bit more robust in the cold and will give some rise in the fridge and grow aggressively as the dough warms.

Most sourdoughs don't respond so well and you have plenty of flavor from the OLD flour that is in the sourdough and levain (assuming you do a two step expansion).

WRT your flours, I understand, we all end up with odds and ends we need to use. No problem except that, while learning, it makes it harder to learn. If you shoot for 64 to 68% hydration for bread flour it should be manageable, and 62 to 64 for AP should be manageable. (I.e. not be a sticky mess, nor a dense blob). A 50/50 blend should be around 65 in my experience. Adding WW will let you increase the water a bit - maybe one to four percent.

Hang in there! You will find something that works for you!
Jay
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  #58  
Old 03-09-2011, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: not quite right...

Well, I've got another boulle to go into the oven... I thought I had an old tile from the entry floor laying around, but I guess not. I'll use the stone cookie sheet one last time. I did however purchase a scale today, so at least I got that goin' for me.

I did use at least a 1/2 cup more water with this flour mixture, and it probably could've used a little more, but it's pretty close to ABIF standards.
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  #59  
Old 03-09-2011, 08:15 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: not quite right...

After 10 years of scaling dough mixing I can very reliably make dough by touch, but...I prefer scaling. I hink you will find it will help greatly in creating consistent products!

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #60  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: not quite right...

If the "pampered chef cookie pan" is their baking stone, it'll work fine. Until the two I was using broke into more pieces than I want to deal with, they were doing well by me.
What Jay said before---you need to preheat stone, cloche or pot for at least an hour.
A less than adequate preheat of the stone is the only reason you'd get an underbaked bottom like that assuming your oven is working properly.

The ABIF recipes are volume vs. weight and extremely lax on the technique end of things, IMO. It's bread baking for dummies, which absolutely has it's place, but if you really want to learn how to bake great bread, it's not the book to work from.
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