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  #11  
Old 05-06-2013, 06:44 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Well said, Faith! One size (loaf) does not fit all!

Ahhh, Abrie!

I never even remotely thought of temp as the super fast rise...Would be really good to get that under control - at least some. You will get more flavor as you provide more time for the enzymes to break down the starch and the bacteria more time to work. Adding the salt at the beginning will help. You can also (assuming you or your family are not salt sensitive) increase salt to as much as 2.5 % without problems. Either or both increasing salt and adding earlier will slow down the yeast and give more flavor.

Using cooler water when mixing the dough will help - and given your high temp variation can make things more consistent and that can be really helplful. Consider mixing the dough and putting it in an ice chest so it doesn't warm up too fast. You will have to experiment a bit to get the timing right but... should work well.

These loaves look much better. The color suggests to me that you may still be steam short but the rip and color look good. The only remaining "issue" is the mouse holes. Big holes are lusted after by some/many but when they get too big they tend to be a problem at multiple levels. Those holes are on the overly large size. I am guessing that it is a forming handling result. The easiest way to get a more consistent crumb in my experience is to delay the forming of the final loaf. Extend the bulk ferment, then form loaves, and shorten the final proof. Total time will be relatively constant - just different allocation of time.

Your yeast looks happy. You are doing well and you seem to be close enough to be able to refine your loaves to what you want them to be.

Keep us informed of your results!

Bake On!
Jay
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2013, 07:52 AM
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Like always Jay spot on with your observations. Steam is always a problem in a WFO. Even when you load a full load it takes time for the loaves to start steaming out and in that time the crust starts to set.

I played with my steam injection on my oven this weekend. I just stuck the steam tube in the door so nothing fancy. But I am generating a good amount of steam so I will make a permanent steam installation from the back of the oven that should help even more.

I agree with the mouse holes being a forming issue. I think that after the dough is divided the glob of dough is not patted down to release the big air pockets before forming the loaf.

There are some good videos on Utube on forming loaves. I was surprised by how rough Jeffery Hamelman was with his dough. No mercy as he pounded the dough into submission. (perhaps his German training. But the French are rough also with that slap and fold method)

Raining cats and dogs here today (so I can't go to work) :-(

But I can still bake :-0

working on a pumpkin seed bread and an oatmeal raisin

Happy baking!
Faith
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  #13  
Old 05-06-2013, 09:59 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Thanks, Faith!

My wife and I are going to remodel an older home and will be installing a steam injection oven. Love your setup!

I should have commented re: mouse holes that at SFBI we made bulk dough that was about four inches thick when dumped from the tub. Those pieces were routinely deflated to about 1 3/4 inches thick during the loaf formation and we had NO shortage of random holes up to bean size. Gorgeous crumb. Part of the trick of this was that we were using instant yeast which is more active than most sourdoughs and had perfectly developed dough. But...I know there are newbies (and oldtimers) that are afraid their dough must be handled g e n t l y. And that is simply not true for most breads if you have well developed dough and robust starter/yeast. So we are in agreement! At least on this. Now if only I could convince you to do try a robust bake! (Big Grin!) (Actually, I love having you as a foil for you represent "the other side"!)

Stay dry!
Jay
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  #14  
Old 05-06-2013, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

I have done a robust bake. Admittedly by accident. The crumb is too dry like 3 day old bread. I bake to a moist crumb but I do use higher oven temps to get that dark crust.

Anyway... can I be Bugs Bunny and you Elmer Fudd??? PLEASE!!!!

Nope, gonna get wet. The oven is regulating, one dough is formed Pumpkin Seed Bread and fixing to start Oatmeal Bread with Cinnamon and Raisins from "Bread"

What better on a wet and rainy day?

Sincerely, Bugs Bunny :-0
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2013, 01:56 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

And I occasionally underbake... So I appreciate your side too! There is an appeal of moist crumb. But I like the roasted wheat flavor and caramelization of the hard bake more.

Sounds like the baking gods in the Virginia area should be happy! I need to feed my starters or the yeast gods will be on my case!

Please post some pics of the Pumpkin Seed bread!!!

Good luck with the rain!
Jay (or is it Elmer!)
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  #16  
Old 05-06-2013, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Hello Jay and Faith

Thanks again for the insight and your comments.

Faith, I have to agree with you when you say that the mouse holes are a forming issue when you guessed that after the dough is divided it is not patted down to release the big air pockets before forming the loaf. I will do some research and this will be my one change for my next bake. I will try and keep it simple and make one change at a time so that I can see the change/improvement. I have to say that for me the mouse holes was not a problem.

For steam I added about 400ml of boiling water to my cast iron pot with lava rocks. This immediately generated a lot of steam, but obviously only when the loaves were loaded. I will search around and investigate other steam injection systems. It will probably make a big difference if I can add a little more water to the pot during the first five minutes of the bake.

Faith, thanks for the offer for further advice. I will certainly ask for more directions as I go along.

Lastly, I just have to mention that these breads really taste wonderful. For other people considering to experiment with sourdough I can honestly say that it is really worth the effort. I really enjoy the whole process.

Regards

Abrie
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  #17  
Old 05-07-2013, 05:57 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Hi Abrie!

Changing one thing at a time really helps when figuring out what happened...

400 ml of water should be enough. Load fast and get the door closed fast. Maybe mop just before loading also. Do not open the door after closing for about 15 to 20 minutes. Your color is close to adequate humidity. You aren't looking for much...

Hang in there.
Jay
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  #18  
Old 06-03-2013, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Hi Guys

Attached a pic of this weekend's bake. My best result yet!

Regards

Abrie
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My sourdough attempt-20130602_133338.jpg  
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  #19  
Old 06-03-2013, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

Now that is just beautiful!!!

Nice job but now you need to remove the "attempt" from your sourdough. I think you've got it.

Faith
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  #20  
Old 06-03-2013, 04:43 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: My sourdough attempt

I will ditto Faith... One of the earliest lessons I learned in artisanal loaves is to seek a loaf with three colors - a darker brown for the ears, a mid brown for the crust and a lighter brown in the rip. You have three colors but you don't have ears. The ONLY thing I can criticize is the lack of ears. That is a slashing (deeper or at an angle) issue. And it is VERY MINOR. That is one beautiful loaf! Great expansion, good proofing!, great color (though I am of the dark side and would bake it another five minutes or so!). (Faith probably thinks it is slightly over by her taste! I highlight that to point out it is well within tolerance! Ultimately it is about what YOU like and want and that is why I LOVE kibitzing on loaves with Faith for we are on opposite extremes!) My other criticism is that I want to see the crumb for that is a telling factor in the making of the bread. I am willing to guess it looks pretty good for the outside looks good!

Keep at it. The more you bake the more consistent and opinionated you will (should) become. And once you have opinions you can work toward them and learn even more and make bread even more to YOUR specifications and desires.

Great work!
Jay
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