#11  
Old 05-18-2010, 07:59 PM
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Nebraska
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

I think I am going to try your bread recipe on Friday morning!! I assume that u use your brick oven? since mine is not done yet, i will just be baking it in the kitchen oven.
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Toby

Columbus, NE
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2010, 08:58 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

Actually Toby, I don't use my oven unless I am doing twelve pounds of dough so I did it in a conventional oven but using a cloche (actually cloches - one for each loaf). The cloche is as close to WFO in results as you can get without a WFO.

The recipe is pretty straightforward. It should work for you. The big question is the timing. My loaves are about 1 1/2 pounds each. I will assume you are going to do them in a conventional oven - no cloche. Use a stone if you have one. Heat it to about 450 (about an hour from starting to baking to load the stone. When I don't use a cloche I put a cast iron skillet with lava rocks in the bottom of the oven and heat it up with the stone. I load the bread and put about 10-12 ounces of boiling water on the hot lava - no extra spraying should be necessary - you will get lots of steam. Drop the temp to 425 and bake for about 40-45 minutes. (Check the internal temp at about 35 minutes if it is getting done looking on the outside. Temp should be at least 205.)

Let me know if you have any questions - you can easily make a smaller batch by starting with less starter and following the same ratio (50 grams plus 100 flour and 100 water, overnight, then 610 of flour, 390 of water, and 25 grams of salt to make the final dough will make about 1.25 kg (just under 3 pounds - two loaves).

Good luck!
Jay
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  #13  
Old 05-19-2010, 12:22 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

Jay,
I've been working on the PR recipies trying to get my techniques in line and decided early on that although the WFO could easly do whatever I wanted to do as far as an oven goes, I needed to minimize the variables. I'm using my kitchen oven at least until I get a better handle on the dough, pardon the pun.. Once I feel more comfortable, soon, I'll be making a big batch to bake in the WFO.

As a side note; Boy have things changed since the late 70s and early 80s!! I have several Bernard Clayton books and PR has me wondering how to modify these BC recipes..

Chris
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  #14  
Old 05-19-2010, 01:51 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

I think that is smart Chris. Once you can consistently do bread in the oven you have a big advantage when trying to figure out what happened with the WFO. I now know my oven well enough I can reasonably reliably make great bread in the WFO but fighting the timing of sourdough and the oven is always a bit tricky - especially if you have a tendency to try to not fire for 2-3 hours to get the oven ready (which is part of my original error and was compounded by the then unrecognized impacts of a new and therefore not dry oven).

I met Peter about five years ago and have been working with his recipes and watching his progress for years. His base logic is pretty straightforward. Use enzymatic action enabled by hydration to add more complex flavors to the bread. And his approach gets a good deal of the complexity of a sourdough (but not the sour) using conventional yeast - which has big benfits in timing - especially to newbies and stubborn people like me who don't like to proof at high temperatures to accelerate/control rise time.

You can easily approximate a Reinhart approach to another recipe by simply taking half the flour and hydrating it to say 60% and letting it sit out overnight and taking the other half of the flour and forming an unsalted dough using the rest of the water. A trick lies in how much yeast to put in and whether you retard or not. In general I think retarding is good and that means a relatively large amount of yeast - probably about half of what you would use in a full loaf. Next morning add the salt and mix the two pieces together. Adjust the dough with water or flour and treat like normal.

I scanned the Clayton book online and it looks pretty good!

If you have a specific recipe I would be glad to give you a stab at a PR equivalent.

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #15  
Old 05-19-2010, 02:11 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

Thanks Jay.. If I follow PR's terminology right then what you're discribing he refers to as "epoxy" mixing. X amount of part "A" with Y amount of part "B".. This is where I was heading. When I go through Claytons "Complete book of Breads" I always have to smile at the picture of the 10 year old boy, or there abouts, riding his bicycle with his arm through what is most easly discribed as a gigantic bagel..

I really want to understand to a much greater degree the enzymatic action and get more comfortable with the higer hydration that seems to be part of these techniques.. At some point I'm going to have to make an oven full of the classic Poilane style loafs.. Christmas, Thanksgiving.. Time will tell..

Thanks Again!!

Chris
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  #16  
Old 05-19-2010, 04:25 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

Peter's method isn't so much about hydration as maximizing the wet time of the dough. That is REALLY obvious in his whole wheat bread book where he has you making soakers for almost every bread. For some reason the epoxy mixing term doesn't grab me but it makes sense due to the A/B nature. The reason he splits it is twofold. First if you only wet the dough very little other than enzymes are activated (yes bad bacteria are activated but they only have twelve hours or so and can't have too much effect). The enzymes break down the starch into sugar and a few odds and ends that will give flavor. The preferment is just flour and water and yeast and gets a healthy population of yeast for the final dough but also provides extended development of various chemicals for flavor (aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, etc.) As a result the dough is much more complex than a dough made from the same ingredients - the next morning. The sugar in the soaker gives the yeast a burst of food and they can finish the bread quickly and predictably. So you get a lot of bang for the buck (or flavor for the commercial yeast). And you get really good bread.

Higher hydration is not so much about flavor as rustic crumb and texture. It especially pays off in pain l'ancienne. That recipe is worth trying and working on. Don't even try to slash it!

Bake On!
Jay
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  #17  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:15 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

The Pain l' Ancienne is one of my favorites, and it's the one I was having headaches slashing. I took a test batch over to a friend who does a wicked Bouillabaisse. Along with my wife, sister in-law, brother in-law, and father in-law (all French) she had her next door neighbors also French to dinner. I asked for critical review and was met with raves. They were amazed at the crumb and taste. I love this particular bread, it's quite forgiving and easy..

I have found that although I have a digital scale, a $50 Escali, that seems to work great within 10 or so grams, it's not great when I'm trying to get a mesurment on 4 grams of yeast or 11 grams of salt this scale just isn't accurate enough for these weights. I've been splitting the 7 gram yeast packets by eye. This seems to be fine as far as the yeast goes but I can see and taste the difference of a few grams of yeast.

Amazing what a few grams of yeast makes.

Chris
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  #18  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:30 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

My original scale does only 5 gram increments and I found that too crude so I bought a scale that does tenths of grams. Big help for small ingredients.

RE: l'ancienne. Peter doesn't recommend slashing it. I have seen it done, but it doesn't seem to accomplish much - just let the skin you did manage to make relax and let hte loaf ooze to the sides and make a ciabatta like loaf. Good loaf and a good representative of what retarding dough can accomplish.
Jay
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  #19  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:35 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: So. Orange County, CA. USA
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

Re slashing l'ancienne, I somehow missed this.. Thanks.
Re. gram scale, do I remember that you have a Soehnle Ultra? If you have any recomendations and or reviews regarding a scale for the light stuff, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks

Chris
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  #20  
Old 05-20-2010, 08:46 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Happy Yeast!

At the time I wrote it I couldn't remember the name of the scale. Your memory worked better than mine. Yeah, Soehnle Ultra. Pretty neat. Comes with a 100 gram weight to use for calibrating it (nice feature). Has the normal tare function. Seems very consistent and reliable. .1 gram accuracy is beyond normal needs but allows you to make really oddball batches (like a fractional loaf) I think it is a fine scale!
Jay
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