#51  
Old 07-29-2011, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Your first batch problems don't totally add up to me. Salt is high (which slows the yeast), hydration is high (which speeds the yeast), temperature is probably high (which speeds the yeast).

My first batch (first rise) did not include any salt it was 100% hydration consisting of 60 grams of starter and 128 g each of flour and water, salt was added for the final dough and then rested and balled left out a couple of hours and then refrigerated.

I am also a bit intrigued that you find 70% hydration 00 manageable and desirable. The norm for 00 is far closer to 60% (and even lower) and adding degraded flour in the starter should push the preferred hydration lower. Many seem to find that really wet 00 doesn't hold together like KA BF in particular.

i was using this hydration level with about 80% KAAP and about 20% KABF. Then I switched to the molina 00 first batch with idy at that hydration came out really good. so I kept it when switching to the starter version. I will recalculate down to at least 65 or lower for the next batch.. just don't want to change too many things at once makes it harder to know which effected it the most... guess it doesn't matter if it works.

What kind of water are you using???? Is it hard?

Water is softened and then filtered through a 5 stage reverse osmosis under sink water filter so pretty pure

Making dough for Sunday I would start with the first expansion overnight. Then the second expansion, ball it immediately, give it say an hour and put it in the fridge. Be sure to check the temp! (Also a good idea to check the temp of the balls when you take them out since we are trying to solve problems.) Take the dough out about two hours before you want to bake. The first balls should be a bit underproofed but the mid and later ones should be about right.

Will only being doing a small amount 2 - 4 dough balls so will take out about 3 hours before planned cook time...

thanks again!

Lloyd
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  #52  
Old 07-29-2011, 02:39 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Ahhh...if you have been doing 80% the 00 would be reasonably manageable. A lot of peopls seem to feel that it has no backbone at 70 percent though - it sort of oozes around more like a batter. That is overstated but...to give the idea. Others find it tears at high hydration (this is weird also IMO). I think you will find you are happier with lower hydration. It should be still be silky smooth and soft but the lower hydration will give it more "touch"

WRT changes - I think I said earlier, single changes are best (though two can be okay if they don't have strong dependencies). WRT water I use RO also but there are those who say RO is not as good as tap - particularly for sourdough.

You did right leaving the salt out of the first expansion. NEVER put salt in the first expansion of SD. One thing you might try (especially appropriate for bread) is mix the final dough without salt and let it autolyze for 20 minutes. Then, mixing by hand, add the salt (hold about 50 ml/50 gm water out to add with the salt. You will FEEL the gluten tighten as the salt is mixed into the dough. A very interesting feel!

Let us know how it goes! Something is screwy and it will be interesting to see what it is!
Jay
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  #53  
Old 07-29-2011, 02:57 PM
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Smile Re: Sourdough crust

I really think that I over proofed the dough leaving it for 15 hours (first rise) then proofing for a couple of hours, retarding and then final proofing continued for 7 more hours.. Anyway I've just reformulated my dough formula for 65% 340 g dough balls for 14 inch pizzas and using the 1.4.4 method. I've developed a spreadsheet calculator for this. I've attached a copy if you want to use it, play with it, or just check it out..
thanks..
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File Type: zip pizza dough using wild yeast calculator.zip (9.1 KB, 27 views)
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  #54  
Old 07-29-2011, 07:53 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

While 15 hours need not be a disasterous first expansion (even though it proabaly peaked at 8) with a young starter you are probably right that it was overproofed. In my experience lack of browning/i.e.gray crust is a key indicator of overproofed. To be candid it is more complex than that but...that is the logic that drivesa lto of m interpretation.

Good Luck!
Jay
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  #55  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Well, it's Monday and yesterday my wife and I enjoyed some very fine sourdough pizza. Thanks for your help.

In summary after a 12 hour initial ferment, my preferment was bubbling nicely and about double in volume. I created the final dough kneeded it briefly mostly stretch and fold. passed the windowpane test and let it rest for about 30 mins before balling it and letting it rise about 3 hours and then refrigerating it. It went into the fridge at about 77 degrees came out Sunday about 11 am at 35 proofed for 3 hours and cooked. In a word delicious.. good char and oven pop and tasting mighty fine. See pictures attached

Lloyd
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Sourdough crust-img_0724-wild-yeast-.jpg   Sourdough crust-img_0726-wild-yeast-.jpg  
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  #56  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:11 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hi Lloyd!

Toppings look good and your oven temp looks good. However, I would suggest trying a much shorter total proof - only 15 to 30 minutes before refrigerating. And only 2 hours on removal. The reason I suggest that is the whitish color of the dough suggests to me you that you are overproofed. It is not a big deal with pizza dough but the pies will be more golden due to the higher sugar content. (One of the key characteristics of overproofed is that the yeast population depletes the available sugar which leads to slower gas production. In pizza overproofed is not a big deal because you can still get decent oven spring in the cornicione but in loaves is a problem if you go that far over.

NOTE: the schedule I suggest may be underproofed a bit but if you feel it is, then you have two data points to extrapolate between. (Realistically three hours is probably about right but trying two hours is more guaranteed to be under...)

Good luck and let us know if you try the shorter time!
Jay
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  #57  
Old 08-02-2011, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

hmm, interesting, didn't think the dough was overproofed, although it could be a bit less proofed and compared to my first attempt where the crust was white/grey and didn't even char, this charred nicely. I think gray crust is also a sign of severe underproofing too. Thanks again, will try less time out before refrigerating next time..

Lloyd
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  #58  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:37 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hi Lloyd!

It could also simply be the photography... Yes, underproofing can yield gray but the reason is lack of sugar, and the retard allows the enzymes to accumulate sugar in the dough so it goes fast when it warms up. You should definitely be able to shorten the preretard proof with minimal impact.

Good luck!
Jay
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