#41  
Old 06-02-2010, 02:14 PM
Dino_Pizza's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hey Jay, I just tried this ingenious ("Duh") method on my 2 doughs last weekend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
One humorous Reinhart story. Most of us, me included, use flour to control the dough, thinking that if it is already sticky more water will make it worse. Peter baked for 20 years before he went (and this is intended to be a humorous paraphrase, not literal), "Duh, dough won't stick to wet hands!" and began wetting his hands before working with wet doughs.
I felt like a kid in a candy store. It's so counter-intuitive but once I started folding and balling and no dough stuck between my fingers...I started laughing at the simplicity and success of it. It also forced me to extra-hydrate beyond the recipe which is critical in our hot/dry SoCal desert environment.

PS to SplatG: A bowl of flour for that wet dough would've been just the thing for me too. I'll do that next time too.

This has been a great thread for me on all kinds of levels,
Thanks again all, Dino
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  #42  
Old 06-02-2010, 03:07 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Glad to help, Dino! It was so funny to hear an accomplished, famous baker acknowledge the standard foibles of "logical" approaches and the "Aha!" moment. As you acknowledge in your comment...it only takes using wet hands once and you're hooked. It is easy, clean, and...definitely brings smiles!

I actually use a jellyroll pan to hold my flour and I plop the dough ball onto the flour in the pan and do the initial patting down on the pan. Then I slap it a few times which knocks off the excess flour and it is ready to go on the peel.

Bake on!
Jay
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  #43  
Old 09-08-2010, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Yea the weather has cooled and it's Pizza making time again (yea indoor oven only). I made your dough Splatgirl and it was totally fantastic. It was about 2.5 days old and was the most crisp and light crust I've ever made.

Pizzas were topped with a mess of stuff from the garden including tomatoes. These were by far the best pizza's I've ever made.

I think the best is I can even google "splatgirl sourdough" from my phone and get to the recipe!
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  #44  
Old 09-08-2010, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

YO! That is fantastic! Great to hear it worked for you!
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  #45  
Old 07-25-2011, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hi, i've just started using sourdough and created a culture which I used for the first time yesterday. I have a 2 stone pizza oven and Molina tipo 00 pizza flour. The starter is 100% hydration fed with KA all purpose. I use Rhinehart's pizza recipe which is about 70% hydration. I used 60 grams of starter and made a preferment with 128 g of flour and water using the tipo 00, I let that sit for about 15 hours it didn't rise much but was bubbly. I then added the remainder of the ingredients another 633 g flour and 389 g of water and 20 g of salt and let rise about 3 hours balled into 12 0z balls and refrigerated. I took the balls out about 6 hours before use. They looked and worked well and tasted great, however I didn't get much oven pop and only small hole crumb and the crust didn't brown and char even cooking at 850 plus degrees. The taste was excellent but not so the texture instead of light and airy it was a bit dense and chewy. Any feedback would be appreciated.. thanks..
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  #46  
Old 07-25-2011, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hi there
IMO you have a few things you could try.

1. Start with a larger initial expansion of your starter. For 60g. of starter I'd go with 240g. flour/240 water. Feeding your starter with one flour and building your dough with another might be throwing those yeasties off, too. Choose one flour and stick to it until you have more predictable, satisfactory results. My personal opinion is that the 00 flours are not worth it for the newb because they're extremely sensitive to handling issues and even in the best of circumstances, there's not a hugely evident difference in the end product.
2. if your "preferment/starter" doesn't double in 12 hours at room temp, repeat the feedings until it does. Mine doubles and then some in 8 hours in warm weather.
3. Once you've built your final dough, you want to see evidence of real growth before you refrigerate. Let it really get going. Three hours for a dough that might be sluggish to begin with isn't long enough, IME. When you portion and ball the dough, you are likely degassing quite a bit and the dough never really has time to get going good again because it gets refrigerated right away. Let those dough balls show you some good evidence of activity--ie almost double-- before you refrigerate. My dough does very little in the fridge and cannot always be relied upon to get going again in a reasonable amount of time post-fridge, so I like it to look close to where it should be before I refrigerate. I've learned to be pretty good at guessing when to put it in the fridge by trial and error. To be safe, err on the side of leaving it out at room temp longer for now. I use my dough cold, but YMMV, especially with your lower hydration.

The lack of browning and oven spring also point to an immature dough.

You don't say how you're working the dough--kneading, etc. That is a factor in both chew and oven spring.
What is the history of your starter? If it's new from scratch, mine took at least a few months to get it's business figured out.

any pictures?
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  #47  
Old 07-25-2011, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hey thanks for the prompt reply and input. Next time I think I'm going to skip the preferment and do the following:

start with 120 g of 50/50 starter - the starter was started from scratch and almost quadruples in a 12 hour period feeding it KA all purpose, it is going on 3 weeks old now with twice daily feedings, after another week or so I will probably refrigerate it since I don't bake or make pizza that often.

add the starter to 731 grams of molina tipo 00 pizza flour and 487 grams of water mix and autolyse for 30 mins then add salt knead for about 3 mins till smooth. Let rest for about an hour doing stretch and folds every ten mins then let rise for 2 hours do a final stretch and fol, d ball and let rise at least 1/3 before putting in frig. I'd go to higher hydration but the tipo 00 flour doesn't absorb as much water as KA. at 70% it is really sticky. I also read somewhere else that lack of charring and browning might also be from the long rise which depletes the sugars out of the flour and then you don't get the carmelization. The suggestion was to add some liquid malt to the dough to add back in the sugars before balling. Don't want to do that just yet though.

Thanks again..
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  #48  
Old 07-29-2011, 08:15 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Hi Lloyd...

Splatgirl's knowledge of sourdough is superb but I have a slightly different interpretation, partially because I don't think you told us enough to make a really good analysis.

Even robust new starters often lack any real rising power for a while. At 3 weeks and quadrupling your starter may only now be approaching usable. And quadrupling is a bit weirdly robust which suggests you may not have a very robust bacteria population yet and therefore good sourdough flavor. In addition it may mean your yeast reproduction rate is really high and - here is where I depart from Splat - after that period of wet time the enzymes should have created plenty of sugar so for it to NOT brown suggests to me it is WAY OVERPROOFED. (Though way under is certainly a possibility.) VERY STRANGE that your starter quadruples when you feed it and barely rises when you begin to make dough! Splat is right that your flour could be throwing them off but I am more likely to believe your starter simply isn't ready!

More comments:
- 70% hydration is WAY wet for 00
- Saying you add 128 grams of flour and water is ambiguous. 128 of each (256 total) or 64 each or????
- Sourdough really benefits from staged expansions. How much dough do you really want to make. Divide by four or five and that is about the size you want for the FIRST EXPANSION TOTAL (say you want 1000 grams of dough - the first expansion should total about 200 to 250 grams - I prefer 200, especially in the summer). Then divide by 4 or 5 again and that is the amount of starter you want to begin with. So... start with 50 (using 5 as the divisor) grams of starter. Add 100 of flour and 100 of water - no salt! Let that ferment until it is doubled (should be about 8 to 12 hours - if it isn't your starter is NOT READY for primetime). Then mix the final dough. At that point you have 125 grams of water and 125 of flour. IF you want 66.667% hydration (chosen because it is a reasonable hydration and makes calculations easy) you need 600 grams of flour (1000 divided by 1.66667) and 400 of water (600 times .6667). And 10 to 12 grams of salt (standard is 2% of flour weight). That dough should need about six to eight hours at room temp to be fully ready to go. Depending on your specific yeast it may or may not do much in the fridge. Mine does not! So I use about two hours out of the fridge, retard overnight (which I figure is worth about two hours) and then two to three hours at room temp to finish the dough.
- Doing it is one step will be troublesome. If you really want to do that I think you are better off simply making a conventional dough and adding starter for flavor.
- Your time was 9 hours plus the retard. Given it is summer you should have been overproofed. However, at that point even if it was overproofed and wouldn't brown it should have risen some, so... It could have been underdeveloped (poor gluten so poor gas holding), poorly shaped and handled (which could be exacerbated by having it so wet), or by excess salt (for you are over 2% salt by my calculations and wild yeast activity can be pretty sensitive to salt).

WRT your final comment about "long rise depleting sugars..." The retard creates a lot of sugar because the enzymes in the flour break starch into sugar and that reaction is less temperature sensitive than either the bacteria or yeast (which are more affected by temp than he bacteria). Gray dough is almost always a clear sign of overproofing.

Sourdough is not nearly as predictable as instant yeast and takes a lot more experimentation to find the "right" combination of factors.

I would suggest using KA AP for pizza (and bread) while you are learning your starter. And, as a general practice, only change one thing at a time...

And the dough has to feel light and bubbly if it is to give a light, bubbly pie! A heavy, wet/cold feeling dough (at baking) will never yield a light bread or pie.

Good luck!
Jay
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2011, 11:38 AM
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Jay, thanks for taking the time to include such a detailed reply. My IDY pizza using Paul Reinhart's bread makers apprentice recipe comes out quite excellent. Always looking to go the next step I decided to try wild yeast to see if it improves the crust flavor, texture airiness.

My starter, started from scratch now about 4 weeks ago seems to be doing very well, I started it with whole wheat and after the first week switched to KAAP, I remove 100g and then add 50 g each of water and flour and within a few hours it is doubled and bubbly and by the time 12 hours comes around it is between 3 and 4 times its size and starting to recede. I have not refrigerated it yet and feed it every 12 hours. It smells like sourdough bread and raw it does have a light sourdough taste to it.

My Pizza recipe for 4 12 oz balls is:
791 g flour (I've recently switched to Molina di pordenone tipo 00 pizza flour) from KAAP
547 g water
4 g of idy (which I am now trying to eliminate and use sourdough starter)
20 g salt
the hydration is 69.1 and with the tipo 00 flour the dough is sticky but workable. I like high hydration because it makes for a more open crumb and light and airy crust.

My first attempt at sourdough crust:

60 g of the starter which is at 100% hydration (50/50 flour/water)
128 grams of tipo00 flour and 128 grams of water a good mix including autolyse resting and some mixing until nice and smooth
room temperature rise for about 14 - 15 hours. Didn't see much rise but some and definitely had bubbling
Final dough addedd 633 grams of flour, 389 grams of water and 20 grams of salt autolyse 30 mins kneed stretch and fold and ball.
I then let it sit out a couple of hours and refrigerated over night
I took the dough out of fridge 7 hours before I actually cooked it and do suspect that it was over. The dough was extremely extensible and stretched out very easy supporting your analysis.... not much elasticity it did get some oven pop but the crumb was more dense than the idy it had onlysmall holes. The outer edge typically browns and chars quickly and my pies with idy cook in 90 to 120 secs. These didn't brown and char so I left them in longer and they came out crispier, good tasting but not the crumb that I was aiming for.

I tried an experiment this week when feeding the starter. After removing 100 grams of starter to discard, I instead feed it with 50g tipo00 and 50g of water to see it's rise as compared to my base starter feed with kaap.. they were pretty much equal a double to triple of the tipo00 and triple+ for the KA.

Next time: I am going to try the 1 4.4 method you prescribe
total dough including 20 grams of salt =1358 g
divide by 5 = 272 divide by 5 = 54
so 54 grams of 50/50 starter added to 109 g each of flour and water
final dough 655g flour 411 gr water and 20 g salt
Will need to reconfigure some for a slightly lower salt and hydration...

Now, someone else suggested limiting starter to 1.7% of total flour so this comes out to about 14 g of starter and a really long first rise of 24 hours at about 65% (he uses a cooler with some ice in it to get the temp to 65). What are your thoughts about going so low on starter? Other things I've read say to substitute 240 g of starter for a packet of active dry yeast. According to my calcs that equates to about 120 g of starter for the amount of idy I use

As I'm sure you know, there are a lot of conflicting/different ways of using sourdough. My goal is to find one that works great and provides the most flexibility (ie cold retard) so I can make the dough on my schedule and not have to worry too much about it being ready or over proofed when I want to cook it, given a few hour window..

thanks again for your response and suggestions. I am anxious to try again and may make a batch of dough today to use on Sunday....

Lloyd
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  #50  
Old 07-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Sourdough crust

Quote:
limiting starter to 1.7% of total flour so this comes out to about 14 g of starter and a really long first rise of 24 hours at about 65
Hi Lloyd!

That is a really strange formulation to me. There is a lot more going on in SD that straight dough. A major reason for staging the expansion is to give the dough some body. With enzymes and bacteria and yeast the structure of the dough degrades pretty fast. (Which is why starter gets so runny after being in the fridge for a week - a nice dough when you start and goop a week later - does not make particularly good bread by the way!) The "fresh" flour in the final dough gives it some fresh "body". Remember too that you are injecting degraded flour into the dough when you use starter!

Your first batch problems don't totally add up to me. Salt is high (which slows the yeast), hydration is high (which speeds the yeast), temperature is probably high (which speeds the yeast).

I am also a bit intrigued that you find 70% hydration 00 manageable and desirable. The norm for 00 is far closer to 60% (and even lower) and adding degraded flour in the starter should push the preferred hydration lower. Many seem to find that really wet 00 doesn't hold together like KA BF in particular.

What kind of water are you using???? Is it hard?

Making dough for Sunday I would start with the first expansion overnight. Then the second expansion, ball it immediately, give it say an hour and put it in the fridge. Be sure to check the temp! (Also a good idea to check the temp of the balls when you take them out since we are trying to solve problems.) Take the dough out about two hours before you want to bake. The first balls should be a bit underproofed but the mid and later ones should be about right.

Good Luck!
Jay
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