#41  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:42 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Rossco!

I have been on the road and away...I am confused by a couple of your comments. At some point in this conversation it seemed to indicate that you kneaded the dough with the KA after you got it out the fridge. That would be BAD for the dough would tighten enormously. At another point you indicate you are autolyzing only 70% of the dough. That again means you have to knead the dough to get to your final mix. Both are IMO bad for they overwork the dough. With Caputo I firmly believe you get better results if you ball the dough before you refrigerate/retard. If you wait the dough will not relax properly. (You can easily do this with AP, it can be balled late, but... I know people do it with Caputo but...)

Good to be back!
Jay
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  #42  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:57 PM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hello Jay - welcome back!

The practice of kneading dough after the fridge proofing was just an experiment and I no longer do it.

Also, I now autolyse the whole amount of flour - added in about 3 stages over about 2 minutes. The initial 70% was also an experiment to see if there would be any noticeable improvement in the dough quality (there wasn't).

Oh yes ... Caputo .... if only!!!!

Rossco
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  #43  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:00 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Ah, Rossco!

Your experiments are consistent with what I would expect. My attitude toward Caputo is "get the handling over with as soon as possible" except for the actual formation of the pie and the dough should be really relaxed when you do that IMO.

Keep after 'em!
Jay
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  #44  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:06 PM
heliman's Avatar
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hello Jay ...

By handling do you mean the kneading and forming the balls?

Rossco
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  #45  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:19 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Yes. I typically form balls with Caputo within a half hour or so of starting making the dough. I put them in plastic food trays with lids and let them sit out for about another half hour. Then I put them in my refrigerator to retard overnight and until about two hours before expected use. I usually have two or three trays and stage them by taking one out about every 30-45 minutes so the last ones used won't sit out for four or five hours and overproof too much. The only way I touch my dough after the first half hour or so is to remove them from the tray and form the pie - all at the last minute - two or three minutes before it goes in the oven. I use a metal dough scraper to cut apart the balls in the trays if necessary and to help get them out of the tray.

That's how I do it and I think it works really well, but...obviously there are other opinions!
Jay
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  #46  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:45 PM
tgm tgm is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Erie PA
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Jay,

We use almost the same procedure only we room temperature proof for 6-8 hrs. prior to using. Your correct in handling the dough just before putting it in the oven as the results are near perfect everytime. The less handling the better.
When we do take the balls and form them they are silky smooth and you can stretch all you want without losing shape. Other than availability, I don't know why you go through all the trouble to use other flour, other than Caputo. It's just not worth all the hassle.

Personally, I think all the heated discussions about yeast amount, proof times, autolyze times etc. are around just to keep the discussion board going. It doesn't need to be this complicated guys, really. Use the Caputo flour, follow the very simple recipe and you will be rewarded with perfect crust everytime.

Four years ago when we put our WFO in we new nothing about making pizza. We followed the instructions given to us by Roberto ( yes THAT Roberto) and we have yet to scrap a batch of dough or make an inedible crust. Use the best ingredients and you will be rewarded with a good pizza that everyone will enjoy.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA
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  #47  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:36 PM
heliman's Avatar
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks for that description Jay - definitely makes sense. That is pretty much how I have been doing it lately. I have started using spray olive oil to coat the proofing container and that has helped me preserve the shape of the pizza and minimise unnecessary handling to get it out to start stretching.

Tom - I believe that there are many of us here in Australia who would undoubtedly use Caputo, BUT for the fact that the $160 per 25 kg delivered price currently makes it uneconomical. Until this changes I for one will have to be satisfied with some of the (very good) local pizza flours that sell for around $25 per 25kg and give good results. There is another thread on this very topic raging away at the moment...

Rossco
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  #48  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:12 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
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Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Tom!

As you know, the key is in the retard and 6-8 hours is enough to make a big difference. I prefer to make the dough the day before just to have less to do on cooking day and I think it gives a small improvement but...small improvements are almost always personal taste.

I also agree that pizza dough need not be complex. Pizza is far less demanding than lean sourdough (assuming you want big holes and gorgeous, golden crust) where hydration, mixing and proof times are far more critical. (Note: I am not saying there isn't an optimum for pizza, but rather that IMO the acceptable range is not as tight.)

Thanks for the comments!
Jay
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  #49  
Old 11-01-2009, 10:58 AM
tgm tgm is offline
Peasant
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Erie PA
Posts: 42
Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Jay,

You are correct it's just personal preferences. I have also made a batch the day before just to save on same day work when we are having a party and with the Caputo it turns out very well. I doubt any of our guests would even know the difference as for most it's their first experience tasting wood fired pizza.
I feel sorry for the blokes down under not being able to buy the Caputo for a reasonable price. Looks like a business opportunity to me for someone to get a container load and distribute accordingly.

Thanks,

Tom in PA
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  #50  
Old 11-01-2009, 04:18 PM
Laborer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 89
Default Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco,

When you finally get your sourdough culture up and running, I want you to try the following:

1. Do the math for a 65% hydration dough with around 2.7% salt.
2. Feed your starter until it's mature and frothy. You'll need enough starter for around 20% of your recipe's weight of WATER.
3. Once the starter is fully awake, dissolve it in all the water and add all the flour. Stir and let rest for autolyse for around 20 minutes.
4. After the rest, add the salt and machine knead for at least 8 minutes. The dough should look satiny and smooth. Let it rest for 10 minutes after kneading before you windowpane it. If it fails the test, knead more, rest more, test more.
5. Once the dough passes the windowpane test, cover it and let it rest at room temperature for at least 12 hours. No refrigerator, no touching, no peeking. At least 12 hours with that tiny bit of dissolved, activated starter.
6. After your 12-18 hour fermentation, pull the dough out of the bowl, knead briefly, portion it, and ball it. It should be soft and sticky, and you should go easy on the flour.
7. Proof these balls for at around 3 hours. They may bubble, they may not. They shouldn't smell strongly of sourdough, and they won't double in size. If everything's ok, they'll just kind of slump on themselves.
8. After proofing, stretch, shape, dress, and bake.

I got that procedure from pizzamaking.com when I was building my sourdough starter. It yields a dough that's very extensible, soft, crisp, and tender inside. I can use King Arthur flour or Caputo or whatever else. As long as the hydration is right and the starter is active, it's fairly fail proof.

I don't know much about the genesis of the Forno Bravo recipe, but my gut tells me that the time in the refrigerator could be messing with you. If you're growing too much bacteria/acid, the gluten structure will suffer. Also, if you're not fully autolysing, fully kneading, or overproofing, things will be weird. Pizza dough needs more kneading than bread, and it needs to remain wet and loose. Once your starter gets going, try the steps above. I think you'll be literally floored by the results.

Good luck,
Stan
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