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  #41  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

The experiment has started...

58% hydration
Perfection flour
2.6% - salt
0.5% - fresh yeast

Very rubbery texture but it loosened up a bit after about 8 mins KA kneading and a few mins on the bench. Now bulk fermenting on the bench. Will ball it before going to work tomorrow morning...
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  #42  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Tenorio, thanks for the input. It sounds like you're leaning more towards a Neapolitan/NY hybrid, with your browning rather than leoparding- that's pretty common with wood oven owners on this side of the world. You've got to give your clientele what they want.

Rossco, the Perfection flour has more protein than the Superb. More protein requires more water, not less. 58% hydration with 12.5% protein isn't completely outside the Neapolitan specs, but it might fight you a bit on the stretch.

Protein, when kneaded, forms gluten and gluten is chewy. Gluten is also elastic, causing the dough to pull back when you stretch it. I put forward the idea to try the Perfection flour because I felt like it would perform closer to Caputo pizzeria flour. Even though the Caputo has less protein, it's milled with very little heat so that the protein it does have is very viable and thus acts like a higher protein flour.

To be honest, I'm half way round the world and have no idea how the Perfection will fare or even if the Superb is even suitable for Neapolitan. I do know of at least one very successful home Neapolitan pizza baker who achieved stellar results with a non Italian 12.7% flour so I have a lot of hope for the Perfection, but I can't make any guarantees.

Neapolitan pizza is naturally a bit chewy. It's usually puffy, but, because of the glutenous nature of the Caputo, it's a bit chewy. Not NY chewy, but a bit. Chewiness/elasticity can be controlled, to an extent, by kneading. Less kneading translates into less chewiness/less elasticity. If you're hoping to avoid chewiness altogether, you can move away from authentic Neapolitan pizza and go with something like the Superb flour. As I said before, though, if you're trying to match the Caputo, Perfection is your best bet.

I know it doesn't list ingredients on the bag, but call Allied and find out if their flours are malted. We've talked about this a little bit before, but I'm bringing it up again because it's a huge factor in fermentation.

Last edited by scott123; 11-28-2011 at 09:34 AM.
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  #43  
Old 11-28-2011, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Thanks Scott...

Update 1: I removed the dough from the container a short while ago and noticed it had trebbled in size. I will cut down the next batch of yeast by half. The reformed dough is resting and I will ball it shortly. It feels quite smooth and less elastic so the 58% hydration seems to have been ok...

Will crank up the oven this evening and give it a test run.

Update 2: My observation of the dough texture was that it was very elastic but along the lines of what I saw in the DM video and elsewhere - demonstrated by being able to pull the prepared pizza onto the peel. I haven't been able to achieve this up until now - probably due to the high hydration and lower protein content. The texture was very soft and often was very thin in places. I also observed that there is very little stretching with the DM method. A few stretches with two hands and it's on with the sauce.

On the topic of sauce, I noticed that they use canned tomatoes and just prepare them with a stick blender. No seed removal which some have suggested, turn the sauce bitter when the blades strike them during the preparation process. I have been reducing my canned tomatoes to get a thicker consistency - seems like DM don't bother with that.

Moving on to the yeast - I have clearly used too much of it and expect to see some very puffed up dough when I get home. I will give that a light kneed and reform the balls and let them sit on the bench for 1.5 hrs while I get the fire ready. They should relax sufficiently to allow for final shaping. I will be preparing another batch of dough later in the week so will aim for a 1/4 - 1/2 of the amount used in the first batch.
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Last edited by heliman; 11-28-2011 at 04:25 PM.
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  #44  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott123 View Post
I know it doesn't list ingredients on the bag, but call Allied and find out if their flours are malted...
Have just fired off a note to the Sales Manager at Allied to get clarity on the "malt" question. I have also asked for the spec sheets for both Superb and perfection flours.

BTW - are these flours "unbleached" as is normally suggested for pizza baking?? Didn't see that mentioned on the bag anywhere.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heliman View Post
I will give that a light kneed and reform the balls and let them sit on the bench for 1.5 hrs while I get the fire ready.
1. Never ever knead a fermented dough. By the time the dough is fermented, the gluten is strong, but extremely vulnerable. Kneading it at that point is going to start shredding the gluten and you'll end up with a gooey mess that will not only never leopard, but will never brown properly either because it will be oozing water.

The only exception to this is extremely wet doughs- those are very forgiving of gluten abuse. But 58%, as I've mentioned is far from extremely hydrated.

2. 1.5 hours is not long enough for a re-balled dough. Ideally, you never want to re-ball, but if you misjudge the yeast and absolutely have to, you should really re-ball a minimum of 3 hours before baking.
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  #46  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

I haven't gone crazy with every detail (yet), but I do notice I get significant leopard printing when I make a dough with less hydration. I am not sure about the percentage, but it made my little hobart mixer freeze up. No stickyness to the dough. I would guess at 57% hydration. Next time I will use the 10 quart hobarts at work so mine doesn't die on me.

Caputo flour is way too lax if you over hydrate it. You cant even stretch it and it tears easily. If you take the test for VPN you have to pull the raw pizza off the table onto the peel. If you can't do that, It might be an indicator of how well your dough is made.

Yesterday's pizza's could do just that (pull onto the peel). Caputo magically feels more moist after some fermentation.

Is leopard printing a caramelization reaction or maillard? If it's a mailliard, too much moisture prevents browning and charring.
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  #47  
Old 11-28-2011, 07:56 PM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Feedback from Allied Mills...

Flour is not malted.

Spec sheets for Perfection and Superb flour.

Tks for the feedback on the process - may just pat the bubbles out and hope that it holds out under the weight of the toppings.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:44 PM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott123 View Post
1. Never ever knead a fermented dough. By the time the dough is fermented, the gluten is strong, but extremely vulnerable. Kneading it at that point is going to start shredding the gluten and you'll end up with a gooey mess that will not only never leopard, but will never brown properly either because it will be oozing water.

2. 1.5 hours is not long enough for a re-balled dough. Ideally, you never want to re-ball, but if you misjudge the yeast and absolutely have to, you should really re-ball a minimum of 3 hours before baking.
Oh dear - then it looks like I may have to toss this batch in the bin. I did some light kneading during the balling process so that may have ruined it. If it is too puffed up tonight I will start again and do a single 230 g batch to test the yeast effect...
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Last edited by heliman; 11-29-2011 at 05:17 AM.
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  #49  
Old 11-29-2011, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

The dough was very puffed up when I got home so I turned the dough into a loaf of bread. I will continue the experiment tomorrow. Having felt the strength of the last batch of dough I will go and buy a 25 kg bag of the 12.5 protein flour plus a few more ingredients to tide me over the Xmas season. The remaining Superb Bakers flour I have will be used to make bread.
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:10 AM
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Rossco, I'm not sure if you've tossed the dough yet, but you might have gotten away without damaging the gluten too much. You should be able to tell if gluten has been damaged because the dough will have lost it's smoothness. My caution was really for future reference.

That's great news about the malt, but I'm not overly enthusiastic about the specs.

Quote:
Protein (N x 5.7)% 11.3 – 12.7%
Are they throwing darts at a dartboard to get these numbers? I could drive a truck through those. I guess, for replicating Caputo-ish results, this range is fairly acceptable, but it still doesn't install a lot of confidence. A quality flour should really only have a margin of error of +/- .3%, at most.
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