#11  
Old 03-20-2011, 06:50 PM
Tenorio74's Avatar
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Peru
Posts: 78
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwood View Post
Hi Ten, I have a 60" oven and I understand how the perimeter can be a little cooler than the center of the oven. That said, I still keep my oven temp. down in the 650 to 750F range during cooking pizza. Maybe I'm a novice and can't manage the pies at the higher temp but I get the same result at the higher temps. If you feel you need to cook at those higher temps, you can lift the pizza up to the dome to do the final browning once the bottom is done. You also might try raising the hydration level to 70% and see if that is better.
Thanks Lwood, you were a big help figuring out my initial fires. Now after many many firings, I KNOW my oven is poorly insulated (except for the floor). I will have to live with it until the operation can afford a fix.

I don't have to cook at 800+, and I think most people like pizza cooked at around 750 or lower. It's just that I love the 1:30 pies, perfectly puffed and creamy. Although for this business I think I will have to make what people like.

My recipe is 66% hydration, but can't knead the 14+ lbs properly by hand, I'm messing up the gluten. So I've gone down to 58% and having an easier time with the hand-mixing. My third big day I did 59% and had no burning or sticking. I guess I'll figure it out sooner than later. I at least understood why my doughs were shining when I stretched them out (broken gluten) and was able to fix that!!!

I do lift it up, but more than I'd like. Maybe I'm just damn fussy.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-20-2011, 07:20 PM
lwood's Avatar
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: philippines
Posts: 642
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Things will get better with experience. The dough kneading situation is very typical, stay at the lower hydration levels until you get more comfortable with handling the dough. I have just recently moved up the hydration level on my dough to 70% because I like the light and puffy crust it gives me. But boy did my kitchen help complain. They got used to it... Lower hydration will help you stabilize your process and be more consistent. When opening a business that's what you need. I'm getting very picky about pizza these days also and want it perfect, so don't feel bad. That pickynesss is what makes you strive to get better.
__________________
Our Facebook Page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-21-2011, 02:38 PM
Tenorio74's Avatar
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Peru
Posts: 78
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwood View Post
Things will get better with experience. The dough kneading situation is very typical, stay at the lower hydration levels until you get more comfortable with handling the dough. I have just recently moved up the hydration level on my dough to 70% because I like the light and puffy crust it gives me. But boy did my kitchen help complain. They got used to it... Lower hydration will help you stabilize your process and be more consistent. When opening a business that's what you need. I'm getting very picky about pizza these days also and want it perfect, so don't feel bad. That pickynesss is what makes you strive to get better.
Thanks for the encouragement!

Are you operating commercially as well? Or do you just have "help" in the kitchen?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-21-2011, 04:17 PM
lwood's Avatar
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: philippines
Posts: 642
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Yes, we are a resort in the Philippines http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stoneh...60738907277443. Right now we are just getting started, opened in Dec. Yes, I have kitchen help, it's a team of three people.
__________________
Our Facebook Page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by lwood; 03-21-2011 at 04:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-27-2011, 12:09 PM
Tenorio74's Avatar
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Peru
Posts: 78
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwood View Post
Yes, we are a resort in the Philippines Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More. Right now we are just getting started, opened in Dec. Yes, I have kitchen help, it's a team of three people.
That's a lovely place you have there!! Congratulations!!!

I find that I need my dough "over-proofed" and full of gas, to get the light pizza I want.... I'm wondering who opens up their pies at double volume from balling... I still find the dough fights me at that point. When I'm about triple size and lots of gas, the dough lets me have my way (although I can't throw it around for show more than once).... But that's another topic.

I'm thinking that my floor is also hotter (although I always use my IR thermometer). Maybe when I just started, I was measuring reflected heat from the flames more than true brick saturation.... I know that happens with IR guns. If I have a 700 floor, but feed the fire and have huge flames around the dome, it will read 800 some seconds later.

Last edited by Tenorio74; 03-27-2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason: added comments
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Tenorio!

You seem to equate proper or underproofed dough with heavy pies. Methinks you are confused with the proper definition of overproofed. Heavy dough makes heavy pies and heavy bread. Properly proofed pizza (and most bread) doughs should not be heavy. They should be bouncy and light (at least somewhat) and feel alive - not like modeling clay.

Needing to go to 58 percent hydration is really strange. You must have really soft flour or some processing problems. As lwood indicated and I have long said, better to drop the hydration to where you can handle it and get your technique together than to have the dough so wet you are a basket case.

Back to overproofing... The simplest way to tell if you are overproofed is the color of the pie. If you scan some of the pie pics on this site you will see pies that have caramelized spots on the pie (cheese, and such) but the crust shows no color. That dough is overproofed. The yeast has consumed all the available sugar and multipled to the point that it is being starved by the rate of sugar creation by the enzymes. And no excess sugar means the crust doesn't brown. So you get a whitish, cardboardy dough or at least move in that direction. It can puff and it can taste okay but by day three or four it gets a bit strange.

Pizza is much more forgiving than bread. A little under/a little over, no big deal. There are also more variables than just time...

Good luck!
Jay
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-27-2011, 05:51 PM
lwood's Avatar
Master Builder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: philippines
Posts: 642
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Thanks Tenorio, we have spent the last 5 years developing it. BTW, my wife just posted an album on the facebook page of a training session with my workers on opening dough....take a look.

Wondering how you are developing your dough opening skills? I had a lot of trouble at first opening dough and to this day, occasionally I have to just fold the dough back into a ball and start over with a new dough ball. Until I had my Pizzaiolo friend come down from Manila and show me the proper technique, I was really having trouble. Everybody has trouble opening dough at first. If you have to allow the dough to triple in size, IMO you are loosing more of the light and airy dough than your gaining. Your correct, the dough is like a woman, the more you fight with her more they fight back. No offence ladies, we love you all. Your hydration level dictates how light and puffy more than anything. Suggest you watch more videos on opening dough and proper technique. Wish I could come to Peru and show you....haha. The more you handle your dough the easier it gets. Good luck Ten.

Thanks Jay for that explanation of over proofed pizza dough. I have noticed the pale white-ish dough intermittently and never knew what was going on.
__________________
Our Facebook Page:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by lwood; 03-27-2011 at 07:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-27-2011, 08:46 PM
Tenorio74's Avatar
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Peru
Posts: 78
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by texassourdough View Post
Hi Tenorio!

You seem to equate proper or underproofed dough with heavy pies. Methinks you are confused with the proper definition of overproofed. Heavy dough makes heavy pies and heavy bread. Properly proofed pizza (and most bread) doughs should not be heavy. They should be bouncy and light (at least somewhat) and feel alive - not like modeling clay.

Needing to go to 58 percent hydration is really strange. You must have really soft flour or some processing problems. As lwood indicated and I have long said, better to drop the hydration to where you can handle it and get your technique together than to have the dough so wet you are a basket case.

Back to overproofing... The simplest way to tell if you are overproofed is the color of the pie. If you scan some of the pie pics on this site you will see pies that have caramelized spots on the pie (cheese, and such) but the crust shows no color. That dough is overproofed. The yeast has consumed all the available sugar and multipled to the point that it is being starved by the rate of sugar creation by the enzymes. And no excess sugar means the crust doesn't brown. So you get a whitish, cardboardy dough or at least move in that direction. It can puff and it can taste okay but by day three or four it gets a bit strange.

Pizza is much more forgiving than bread. A little under/a little over, no big deal. There are also more variables than just time...

Good luck!
Jay
Hi Jay!

I used to work at 67% hydration, but was messing it up somewhere along the line with the gluten development, so I dropped to 58-60% to get my kneading act together. Maybe "overproofed" in my book really isn't...

What I mean by overproofed is that when my dough balls have doubled in size in the tray (about 50% bigger diameter), they aren't light and gassy (and pliable) yet. They will get there about 2-3 hours later. We all know the point, where you spread out the disk easily and it's flat it's FULL of gas bubbles all over. Maybe it's been the temperature drop now that fall has started, maybe I need a bit more yeast (I'm using 0.185%), or I have to bump up my water again, or something else. It's more complex than it seems, I know.

As to the color of the pie... Well when I can do my 90 second pies, I get leoparding and char spots but there really isn't enough time for browning. I can brown if I work at lower (600-700F) temp ranges for a bit longer (2:30-3 mins).

I definitely am in a "discovery phase" with the new oven and these amounts of dough (hand-kneaded), so bear with me please! (All this is a bit ironic after many years making pizza at home). I guess the trial period 100+ pizza a week has moved me into unfamiliar territory, so I'm making more mistakes in less time.

I'm going to try a new, stronger flour this week and see what that does... At least I've gotten positive feedback so far, as this is the first pizzeria of this kind down here.

Thanks again!
Tenorio
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:02 PM
Tenorio74's Avatar
Laborer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Peru
Posts: 78
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwood View Post
Thanks Tenorio, we have spent the last 5 years developing it. BTW, my wife just posted an album on the facebook page of a training session with my workers on opening dough....take a look.

Wondering how you are developing your dough opening skills? I had a lot of trouble at first opening dough and to this day, occasionally I have to just fold the dough back into a ball and start over with a new dough ball. Until I had my Pizzaiolo friend come down from Manila and show me the proper technique, I was really having trouble. Everybody has trouble opening dough at first. If you have to allow the dough to triple in size, IMO you are loosing more of the light and airy dough than your gaining. Your correct, the dough is like a woman, the more you fight with her more they fight back. No offence ladies, we love you all. Your hydration level dictates how light and puffy more than anything. Suggest you watch more videos on opening dough and proper technique. Wish I could come to Peru and show you....haha. The more you handle your dough the easier it gets. Good luck Ten.
Lwood, I wish you loads of success with your venture.... Holy cow, just having and oven and restaurant is hard enough for me! I can't imagine the logistics of having a resort!!

My dough opening is fair I guess. I just flatten (no thumbs), rotate and flip 90 and flatten, and repeat (this I got from youtube). Then I stretch over my knuckles a bit (or flip hand-to-hand), and if the dough feels right a toss in the air finishes it. I will check out your album on opening dough..... How much do your dough balls weigh? I'm at 300gr, doing about 31 cm pizza. I get paper thin in the middle sometimes...

Maybe I am losing more air allowing my dough to expand that much. On tuesday (when I make dough again), I will take pictures at bulk fermentation, just balled in tray, and at 4 and 8 hours. Maybe that will shed some light on things.

You're more than welcome to come down to Peru!! Believe me, I'd go to the Phillipines if I could I need a break and haven't even really started yet....

Last edited by Tenorio74; 03-27-2011 at 09:08 PM. Reason: Added question
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-28-2011, 06:14 AM
Il Pizzaiolo
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,719
Default Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Tenorio...

Sounds like you are probably not overproofed. And a bit over isn't a problem for pizza anyway. Some bread gurus prefer slightly over also.

Another view of overproofed is that the dough will cease rising. What is generally viewed as "perfect" proof would be just as the dough reaches maximum volume. From there on the best it can do is produce enough gas to hold its volume. There is sort of a plateau which will eventually lead to deflation.

With bread a lot of us want "rip" in the slashes so we like to bake a bit early for greater oven spring. Not a factor with pizza.

You should still get browning of the dough. Save a ball in the fridge for three days and bake it and you will see the look I refer to.

Where are you in Peru? What is your ambient humidity. That could be why you need to be so low in hydration.

Hang in there!
Jay
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crispy Pizza bottom mrgweeto Pizza 33 07-04-2013 10:42 AM
Weber Genesis with Pizza Que Stone Project w/PICS cerreta Pizza Stone Baking 20 04-12-2010 06:29 PM
Pizza bottoms burnt jeads Pizza 12 03-28-2010 08:19 PM
Crispy Bottom Pizza ERASMO Pizza 3 01-07-2009 05:17 AM
This man needs help jengineer Chit Chat 3 07-02-2008 02:55 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
2006/10 Forno Bravo, LLC