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thezaman 09-30-2009 06:46 AM

dough mix time
can someone help with a dough mix time using a kitchen aid mixer. i am using 1200 grams of caputo flour 58 % hydration cold water ,2.5 % salt 2 grams of wet yeast. i have been mixing on 2 for 14 minutes . the dough in not overly warm at the end if the mix . any thought on the mix length?

texassourdough 09-30-2009 07:54 AM

Re: dough mix time
I would suggest doing the mixing in two phases. First, mix long enough to create a ball (get past the shaggy stage) which should be around 4 to 6 minutes at low speed. Then a five to ten minute rest to relax and hydrate the dough. Then about 2-3 minutes at medium speed to pull it together. I would then dump it on the counter and do a couple of folds, but that should be pretty stiff dough and the folds probably don't do much. I would then let it rest about 20 minutes, form balls, cover with saran (or put in a proofing tray or coat with oil and put in plastic bags) and refrigerate overnight.

If you are deferring forming the balls with Cauputo I encourage you to do a comparison between a ball made hours earlier and one made about two hours before baking. In my experience the former will be more relaxed and more tender.

Good luck!

thezaman 09-30-2009 08:50 AM

Re: dough mix time
thanks for you response. dough toughness is one of my major problems. a cooled pizza is very tough, uneatable. i have had neapolitan pizza that has a nice chew even cold. that is my goal, i have tried 24 hour room rise ,8 hour bulk room rise ect. nothing works. so knowing the problem i am having can you suggest a method from start to finish. i listed my recipe standard vpn . i want to use a method that allows me to work from dough balls out of a cooler. any help would greatly be appreciated . another note ,my oven is a primavera 70 i have been cooking at 900 degrees on the floor, that might be to hot.

texassourdough 09-30-2009 12:55 PM

Re: dough mix time
Ahhh... toughness... That is exactly the symptom I note in late balled Caputo though not necessarily as tough as you indicate. Your hydration is on the low side IMO. Makes the dough easily handleable but...I would suggest upping the hydration to at least 60 or 62 %. Tough dough is also a characteristic of dough that is overworked at the end. Example. Take a ball and start to form it (i.e flatten it out a bit) and then ball it back up. It will be as tight as a drum. Almost impossible to stretch it out to a disk again. And it WILL be TOUGH.

Your long mixing may be overworking the dough a bit also. I would suggest starting with the lower times I indicated and increasing if you think you need to.

900 on the hearth is awfully hot. The VPN standard is 800. I run 750 to 825 depending on my mood. I don't know if the hearth affects the toughness at least makes it hard to cook the pizza (even a sparse one) thoroughly for it is REALLy fast at that temp.

Oh...the 24 hour room rise is way too long - you will badly overproof unless you barely added any yeast (and you added a normal amount). The enzymes will eat a lot of flour in 24 hours at room temp. That could give you a wierd texture too. Even 8 hours at room temp is too long.

2 t of yeast in a kilo or so of flour is about a three to four hour rise dough. Refrigerating (retarding the dough) will slow the yeast more than the enzymes and bacteria and you get more flavor and build up sugar in the dough which, when you take it out of the fridge will multiply rapidly and be ready to bake in about 2 hours (after removal). The time in the fridge can be anything from about 4 hours to 2 days but overnight is nice.

Hope that helps! Let me know how your next batch goes!

I find that the

thezaman 10-01-2009 08:23 AM

Re: dough mix time
jay ,thanks for your help. any time i mess up a dough ball i re-knead and save for bread, it i useless for pizza. i still have toughness issues. i am going to reduce my mixing time to your suggested method an see if that helps. i also don't get an even bake on my pizzas. i get a good edge rise on the side close to the flame but not on the side i rotate to the flame. the yeast seems to have run its course by then. last night my dough was a little cold an not to room temp. i am in ohio and the wether is cooling, that may be a factor. i did cook a a slightly lower temp and my oven varies by about 75 degrees from close to the flame and the floor edge close to the far oven wall. again my oven is a primavera 70 if that makes any difference. any thoughts?

texassourdough 10-01-2009 09:07 AM

Re: dough mix time
Your oven floor temp variation seems a bit large. Are your coals all over the hearth before you clean up to do pizza? Maybe you should move coals over to the "cold" side for five minutes before you start in order to even the temperature.

The fire side of a pizza will often puff a little more but your issue sounds more like a result of your overproofing. With an 8 hour or longer room temp proof most of the gas in your dough will have escaped - so it can't puff (or won't) very much. At normal yeast levels (which you use) you only want about 2 1/2 to 3 hours at room temp - total before being ready to bake. The dough will be fine for another hour or two and will work longer, but quality will fade after 3 to 4 hours. (the retard interrupts that and allows more flavor development).

Cooler temps of fall will help!

thezaman 10-01-2009 09:34 AM

Re: dough mix time
jay thanks,
i noticed the forno bravo recipe is three grams of dry yeast for 500 grams of flour . i use wet yeast and only 2 grams for 1200 grams of flour. dry yeast conversion is half of wet so should i kick up the yeast?

tgm 10-01-2009 10:04 AM

Re: dough mix time
I have been having excellent results with an 8hr room temp rise using hand mixed Caputo. We are using 3g of fresh yeast for 1.78kilo of flour, mixing for 5min, rest for 10, finish knead for 15-20min (by hand only) and then ball form to 275g balls. Let rise and rest for 8hrs. and you will have the best crust ever.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA (Erie)

texassourdough 10-01-2009 10:08 AM

Re: dough mix time
Oops...I crossed you with someone else... I read 2 teaspoons which would be about right for 1200 grams of flour. Arrgghh.. That makes it a lot harder...

Using 1 gram effective dry yeast for 1200 grams of flour will give you much longer proofing times but long slow rises are troublesome for the CO2 has longer to leak out. At 24 hours you were almost certainly overproofing. 8 hours is ??? unknown.

3 grams dry yeast is a scant teaspoon and is normal for pizza dough using 500 to 700 grams of flour.

Lets double that - 6 grams dry yeast for 1200 grams of flour. Your conversion would make it 12 grams. I would suggest trying that level in your next batch. It should be ready to go in three to four hours at room temp. For simplicity I would suggest NOT retarding it in the first try. Just mix, ball a half hour later, and let proof at room temp for about two to three hours. It should be ready to rumble. (Or simply make up a half batch and use it to make flatbread (sprinkle with herbed olive oil and coarse salt) as a test.)

That should give you a good dough. Then if you want more flavor you can retard.

Another somewhat wild approach would be to go to a sourdough approach. Take about 300 grams of flour and about one gram of your wet yeast and mix it up (I would do 300 grams of water) and let it sit out overnight. Should be frothy and peaking around the next morning (12-16 hours later) but getting the timing right will take playing with the amount of yeast. Then use that preferment to leaven the final dough (simply add flour, water and salt to get the proper total amount). (There are a lot of alternatives in this approach that can give even more flavor if you like that idea. The problem with it is that it gets your dough ready too early. Much easier to retard in the fridge and simply move them to the counter about 2 hours before you want to bake!)

Looking back at your recipe, you may actually be way underproofed. Salt is a yeast inhibitor and 2.5% is high (most bread is closer to 2%). Salt begins slowing the proofing at only about .25% and it is my mpression that over 2% may have exponential impact so....with a low yeast level and lots of salt it is possible the dough is "heavy" and that may be making it tough. At 2.5% you may need extra yeast in the recipe.

A key, I think, is getting the yeast up and proving you can make a light, airy dough. Then make changes to tweak it to what you like!

Hope that helps!

thezaman 10-01-2009 10:12 AM

Re: dough mix time
tgm ,is your crust tender after your pizza cools? have you had il pizzaolla in pittsburgh? his pizza was tender cold, that is my goal . i ate at keste two weeks ago and you are right he is a master!! he took me into his dough room and he is creative in how it is set up.

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