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wlively 06-18-2007 01:35 PM

Dough experts input
OK technical question.

I made my second batch of pizza's. Dang good, if I say so myself!:)
This batch was Forno Bravo recipe + 1 Tbs spices, weighed on scale, with 100% Tippo 00, and let sit overnight. Alot more wet than I am used to. Very delicate dough with a great crust.

The first batch I used my tried and true modified Wulfgang Puck's dough;
1 1/4 cup whole wheat
1 cup Tippo 00
1 1/4 cup water, approx
1 Tbs honey
2 Tbs olive oil
1 pkg yeast

Turned out way better than stone in oven and the Tipo really softened it. But this dough is fairly dry when coming together. Again not a problem but I was wondering what is the big difference or technical reasoning for hydration? I like both versions, although I taste a bit more yeast in the Forno. I would also like to incorporate about 50% wheat into the Forno, any advice?


CanuckJim 06-18-2007 04:06 PM

Re: Dough experts input

I think with any dough, bread or pizza, higher hydration will give you better oven spring, better crumb structure and better taste, particularly after retardation. It's all about balance. Believe me, I've tried it both ways, and higher is better, lighter, tastier.

For the Puck formula you're using, my feeling is that the yeast amount is too high, especially for a retarded dough. Maybe that's why you got a bit of yeasty flavor. One package equals 2 1/4 tsp. Also, the hydration level is too low. Nothing against Puck, of course, but you might want to modify to get a lower yeast count and higher hydration percentage.

If you incorporate wheat flour, depending on its source and composition, you will have to adjust your hydration to account for it. I'd start with about 25 per cent or so and move up from there. You could also try 25 per cent whole wheat and a couple of Tbs of stone ground rye flour, not exceeding your total weight requirements. Small amounts of rye make for large amounts of taste change.


Archena 06-18-2007 04:44 PM

Re: Dough experts input
Ahem - that's 'gluten challenged' dough...

:D Sorry, couldn't resist...

wlively 06-19-2007 04:30 AM

Re: Dough experts input
Thanks for the expert advice Jim.

I will try try your suggestions. The Forno recipe is the one that tasted very slightly yeasty (still very good, just a detectable difference) which I thought strange since the Puck recipe is not a retarded dough (only 1-2 hr rise after mixing). I thought if the yeast had more time to work that would not be the case. :confused: I do bloom the yeast first so maybe that altered things.

One more question. Has anyone tried adding a small amount of roasted garlic paste to the dough?

Archena 06-19-2007 04:42 AM

Re: Dough experts input
Ya might wanna try that with only a portion of your dough - a single roll - and a really, really tiny amount of paste. With pastes of any kind a little goes a long way and the same is true of garlic on its own. Could be good but could also backfire really easily.

If you're using it for pizza I'd just add it to the sauce where you have more control - lots easier to double a sauce recipe than it is to double bread once you've gotten it started. Also good added to a butter spread which you can use on the crust. Just remember a garlic paste is gonna pack a huge punch.

Well, that's my tiny, regular baking, take on it. Personally, I'm a garlic hog and will eat concentrations that send other people running but you kinda gotta take those other people into consideration with your recipes - bummer, huh?

Just remember, your mileage may vary!


Unofornaio 06-19-2007 07:16 AM

Re: Dough experts input

Originally Posted by wlively (Post 11683)

One more question. Has anyone tried adding a small amount of roasted garlic paste to the dough?

I used to make a 1lb loaf and mini baguettes Id sell at the market with roasted garlic paste in them..... people loved them. Roasted garlic paste is very sweet and not nearly as concentrated incorporated in a dough as I thought it would be. Incorporating anything into a dough (after first rise) is tricky, what I would do was sort of what another mentioned and just do a small portion of the batch. But because I was doing a reasonable volume and needed to keep things consistent I would take the dough (the actual one the add in was going to be contained in) scale out a portion and then add a scaled out portion of add-in this way it would give me a reasonably good guess how much add-in a full batch would take plus I would keep note of the add-in ratio in case I wanted to make a half batch or just a few.
I have tried adding fresh garlic paste to some focaccia dough, very intense but I love garlic. If adding fresh garlic to the dough be careful to use this dough first and do not try to leave it over night, something in the garlic breaks down the dough structure and renders it useless even as pizza dough. Its like it cuts the strands of gluten and just becomes a blob of..wet flour. Kinda like a dough that has fermented to long after a while the yeast breaks down the dough.

CanuckJim 06-19-2007 08:51 AM

Re: Dough experts input

It is correct and fundamental that neither wheat nor rye contain as much gluten as harder flours, but "challenged" it isn't. If the whole wheat flour contains the whole grain, there will be more gluten and starch and germ and and and, than the supermarket variety. Same goes for stone ground whole rye. Still, that's why I recommended starting with a relatively small percentage. It really depends on the origin and composition of the flours. It's a mantra out there that wheat and rye don't work; well, depends. Wheat gluten is also out there, and you can increase the gluten percentage in any flour by adding small amounts to the total mix. This is how I manipulate flours that, by nature, are somewhat lower in gluten. The whole point is taste, not rules.

What it takes is practice and experimentation with the materials available until you reach the point you want.


james 06-19-2007 11:11 AM

Re: Dough experts input
I have come to the conclusion that gluten is over-rated. I used to think that if I could find a better flour, my bread would be better. But with Jim's help, I am making the best bread I have ever done and my pizza dough is much better from the experience. And I'm doing it, on ocassion, with $.29 flour that is really low in gluten.

I think Jim has it right. Practice, experiment, taste -- dough handling. Those really matter.

CanuckJim 06-19-2007 01:27 PM

Re: Dough experts input

I agree that gluten is over-rated and very often over-used. Small amounts, however, can make up for deficiencies in other areas. The hard bread flour I buy in bulk simply isn't strong enough for my bagels, for example, so I add about three Tbs to six pounds of flour. That brings the mix up to snuff so I make bagels instead of hockey pucks. But that has to do with what's available to me here. In other places, with other flours, it would not be necessary.

You're exactly correct: practice, experiment, taste, dough handling. They are where it's at. And, right on, with proper technique you can make good bread and pizza with just about any flour out there.


Dutchoven 06-19-2007 07:19 PM

Re: Dough experts input
I also concur with my knowledgeable? comrades...good bread comes from both the art and the the beginning I followed recipes strictly and really made mediocre bread...but the more mediocre bread I made and paid attention to the methods and then began to understand and "feel" how things felt...didn't have to check the dough temp when it came out of the mixer because I could feel it...understanding how relative humidity will affect the final product...and so many other things. Don't get lost in the it, feel it, taste it and change it if need be...James said in another post baking bread is like golf and matter how good you are(it is) you will always want(it) to be better...
P.S. Oh, forgot about the original discussion...higher hydration gets my vote...and you can always add some gluten too!

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