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Flour Test... - Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community

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Flour Test...

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  • Flour Test...

    I received my pizza kit from James and Forno Bravo today. So now I must plan an experiment to compare the Caputo flour to the KA Italian. So I will be mixing up a batch of both on Friday afternoon for use on Saturday. Wish I could do it sooner but my wife (main audience) is out of town and I want her to be here.

    Plan will be to do Pizza Margharita as the acid test - no oil in the dough. I will use the San Marzano tomatoes from FB and my own fresh spices. I will probably even make my own mozz on Saturday.

    I will plan to post comments on Sunday.

    I will probably use Reinhart's Neopolitan dough recipe. It seemed to work really well with the KA last time.

    I am posting this early in case someone has a really good idea for additional tests. I am still playing with strategy a bit. While I normally make dough by hand I will probably use my Kitchen Aid to provide more consistent handling. Will probably shoot for identical hydration to see how different the flours are.

    Looking forward to the test!
    Jay

  • #2
    Re: Flour Test...

    Jay - I would use James' dough recipe for the test. He spent a fair amount of time to dial in the caputo flour. I have to admit, the last time I made pizza, the dough was perfect.
    Check out my pictures here:
    http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/les-build-4207.html

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving isn't for you.

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    • #3
      Re: Flour Test...

      I agree with Les (hah hah).

      Either way, try using the same recipe and technique for both the first time. If you are going to try it out more than once, you could adjust the hydration on the KA flour the second time. -- if it feels dry.

      Have you downloaded the FB Pizza Stone Pizza eBook yet? That has a couple of new ideas on dough prep -- including our version of the keyhole dough ball technique.

      Let us know how it goes.
      James
      Pizza Ovens
      Outdoor Fireplaces

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      • #4
        Re: Flour Test...

        I don't know about the KA flour, but the Caputo can take a very high level of hydration. That is one of it's benefits. I do 67% with the caputo, so make sure your recipe includes a high hydration level or you may not see the full benefit of the caputo...
        Drake
        My Oven Thread:
        http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/d...-oven-633.html

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        • #5
          Re: Flour Test...

          Last weekend I planned to run a test between the Caputo and the cheapest flour I have using the recipe in the Pizza Stone pdf. Sadly as the balls were in the dough tray they got up-dumped and all smashed together.

          Once I got over my aggravation (and that took a bit), I split them all into balls again let them rise a bit and made pizza. Some being presumably more Caputo then others but heck, who knows.

          Some pizza's crusts were better then others, but all were the best crusts to date so I can vouch at least for the recipe.

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          • #6
            Re: Flour Test...

            That's a funny story. It sounds like you had some 60/40, 70/30 dough balls. That's gotta be a first.

            Glad the recipe works!
            James
            Pizza Ovens
            Outdoor Fireplaces

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            • #7
              Re: Flour Test...

              Hmm but tell me more about making your own cheese. That I've never heard of.

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              • #8
                Re: Flour Test...

                One more thing. I have been doing a lot of dough recently with both the new Caputo Rosso and the old Blue GP, and the Rosso definitely hydrates better and can take on more water without being too sticky -- which is great. It's basically a stronger flour.
                James
                Pizza Ovens
                Outdoor Fireplaces

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                • #9
                  Re: Flour Test...

                  My plan to use the same recipe (or at least start the same) was so I could be precise in evaluating the difference, recognizing it might not be optimal. I know from experience that the KA Italian handles 60% water with no problems, creating a softer, silkier, much more extensible dough compared to AP. ( As an aside KA recipes use more like 55% plus oil). NOTE: I was really surprised by how not sticky it was given the relatively high BP and the low gluten content (8.5 percent).

                  I have only used the KA Italian flour once so I haven't played with water on it yet. I think it is going to handle higher hydration pretty well also. You guys talked me into it. I will try 67 on both... and get back to you on Sunday!
                  Jay

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                  • #10
                    Re: Flour Test...

                    Well, I mixed the dough and that's enough for the first set of comments.

                    First, I chickened out on doing 67 percent. The KA Italian claims to be only 8.5% gluten and per James the Caputo is about 11.5. There is no reasonable way to expect the KA to hold as much water. However, I did feel the dough could take more water so I went to 60% from 58%. And I followed James recipe in the new eBook which is 65%

                    First, the flours look very much alike. Very fine and clumpy.

                    The KA Italian was done per Reinhart's Napoletana dough mixing everything at once for 4 minutes. Resting 5. and 2 minutes a bit faster in a Kitchenaid. The dough was lovely. Barely sticky and easy to handle. And very silky.

                    As indicated, I followed the recipe in the Pizza Stone eBook. The dough came together a lot faster than the book seemed to indicate. By 4 minutes or so of the second mixing it was a nice dough - a bit runny, but...not nearly what I expected from the book.

                    The doughs are kind of hard to compare. The Caputo was a LOT stickier and didn't seem to want to hold its shape as well - which is consistent with higher water but seems a bit wierd given the higher protein and greater mixing involved to develop gluten. It DID tear more easily though and gave me the feeling it was stronger which would be consistent with the higher gluten. It felt light, but subtly stiffer than the KA.

                    I think I can guess what the differences will be tomorrow. I think they are going to be very similar, with the Caputo having just a touch more "bite". My first try with the KA Italian gave a crisp crust with a really nice, soft interior. I will bet the Caputo is a bit overall "stiffer" and with a bit more interior resistance. And I will bet the Caputo has just a bit more elasticity when forming the pizza (the KA showed almost no resistance in my previous trial.

                    So, now they are rising and going to the refrigerator to await their head-to-head trial tomorrow.
                    Jay

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                    • #11
                      Re: Flour Test...

                      We should all just give it up. The solutions has just been unveiled in Rome:
                      Pizza-making machine has chefs in a spin . It's the end of slow food and the redefinition of fast food. McD's keep you head down.

                      Jim
                      "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

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                      • #12
                        Re: Flour Test...

                        That Italian machine is a totally different experience!!! Clearly it is the epitome of fine pizza and I am confident we will all be jetting off to Italy to be among the first to taste this fine, raw flour delight! (Yeah, Sure!)

                        More realistically it is almost enough to convince me to NOT go to Italy. However, I suspect the real issue is: Introduce it it Italy, Get Press and Attention, Then install them in other countries. And promote them as "Developed in Italy".

                        And, ideally put them in college dorms where guys will eat #$%^!

                        However I have no doubt you are already tearing down your WFO to make room for your Instant Pizza machine!
                        Jay
                        Last edited by texassourdough; 03-28-2009, 07:46 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Flour Test...

                          My first head-to-head test of KA Italian and Caputo 00 is complete.

                          The brief conclusion is that they yield very similar results but there were some differences in prep that I need to close before I declare a "winner".

                          As a recap, the KA Italian was mixed at 60% hydration and the Caputo at 65. The flours looked very similar but the Caputa seemed stronger (and should be for it is supposed to be 11.5% protein vs. 8.5). The Caputo dough was much stickier and harder to handle out of the mixer and had less "structure" (ability to hold shape).

                          Then it got wierder. At refrigerator temps the KA Italian was definitely stiffer and less sticky than the Caputo. During the final rising at room temp the Caputo almost formed a puddle and the KA held its shape pretty well. The KA continued to be easier to handle. Both made similar pies but the Caputo continued to be a bit more challenging.

                          The first Caputo pizza incurred a burning topping problem that forced me to pull it a bit early - before it was fully cooked. The pie was good but a bit soft and gummy. The second pizza was cooked properly and serves as the reference for following comments.

                          Both KA pizzas were properly cooked but I deliberately cooked the first a bit short and the second a bit harder to get a range of results.

                          The harder cooked KA and the properly cooked Caputo were quite similar. Both had lots of crunch and a softer interior but I think the Caputo was a touch tougher. But really close!

                          My current conclusion is that they are quite similar and capable of very similar results. Precise details and personal preference will be big factors in which is deemed to be better.

                          I clearly need to increase the hydration of the KA to get closer to or equal the Caputo.At that point I would think the higher protein in the Caputo should be more evident.

                          In two uses of the KA Italian I have found it very easy to work with. While the Caputo at 65% hydration was well within my handling ability I can see newbies having some problems at that hydration level.

                          I kind of get the feeling that the Caputo is a bit like a Ferrari - capable of higher performance and results, but more exacting in how it is treated and coaxed into doing so.

                          The test WILL be done again!
                          Jay

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                          • #14
                            Re: Flour Test...

                            Originally posted by texassourdough View Post
                            The KA Italian claims to be only 8.5% gluten
                            I have a possibly ignorant question: if this is true (which is indeed stated as 8.5% protein in the product description), then how does that jive with the nutritional information label on the KA site that has 3 g. protein for a 30 g. sample size? Isn't that more like 10%? This type of discrepency has always confused me. Am I missing something?
                            Last edited by BrianShaw; 04-04-2009, 01:35 PM. Reason: cleaned up possibly confusing grammar

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                            • #15
                              Re: Flour Test...

                              OK... answering my own question: rounding.

                              IF they rounded up to get non-decimal values onto the label... then it could be around 8.6% 2.6g (the smallest nubmer that should be rounded to 3) in a 30.4 g. (the largest single-digit number that should be rounded down to 30) sample would yield 8.55%. Which, if the reader will indulge my speculation, the KA marketing department probably rounded to 8.5 rather than 8.6 because of some obscure research that indicates odd numbers to yield greater sales than even numbers.

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