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I finally got Caputo; and a question. - Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community

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I finally got Caputo; and a question.

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  • I finally got Caputo; and a question.

    Every hobby or adult interest has certain 'truths' that are clear to the old timers but looked upon with a skeptical eye by the new comers. Caputo flour was that way for me until this week-end. You see, I finally obtained some Caputo and was able to use it to make my dough for Pizza Day. WOW! What a difference! Thank you to this forum for showing me the way. I can only imagine how much more my art will advance as I implement other truths found here into my pizza.

    Now, my question: I used the Forno Bravo Caputo recipe to make my dough. I don't have a scale for the kitchen so used the cups measuring variation. When I was forming my dough, it was very elastic, but tore without much effort. It was usable and easy to to work with, but tore much more quickly and with less handling than I expected (and I was being very careful). Did the dough tear because it was perhaps a little too hydrated, or not quite hydrated enough. More water or a tad less water next time?

  • #2
    Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

    You reference using the fornobravo caputo recipe - could you be more specific. I believe the caputo I ordered came with a recipe also, but I use the one (by weight) posted on the forum here.

    http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f10/...eight-691.html

    I modify this by reducing the yeast (usually a half teaspoon to 1.5kg caputo) and adding some natural starter for a long slow rise. I try to make the dough a few days in advance and after the yeast/starter have started the dough bubbling I divide the dough into balls and let rest in the fridge for 1-2 days (can go longer).

    To get to your question - I think the suppleness of the dough (resistance to tearing) comes primarily from the slow rise and the fridge conditioning of the dough. Hydration is important as well (aim for 60-65% with caputo), but I think the dough needs to develop.

    This is how the dough should handle :

    YouTube - Il Pizzaiolo Pazzo

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    • #3
      Tipo OO

      I was able to find Tipo OO [not Caputo] locally [Claro's Itialian Market] and wonder if all OO's are alike?

      Thanks,

      J W

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

        I don't think they necessarily are. Tipo 00 means a specific fineness of grind but does not specify protein content or how the flour was handled. You could have a Tipo 00 that has a protein content ideal for pastry or have a Tipo 00 with a higher protein content than caputo. Caputo protein content is very similar to all purpose, but general all purpose flour from your supermarket does not behave like caputo in a pizza oven.

        Nevertheless, I'd be interested to hear your experience with the locally available product. Better yet, try that and then purchase the small bag of caputo from fornobravo and report your experience.
        Last edited by maver; 02-28-2007, 01:59 PM. Reason: typo

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        • #5
          Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

          Hey Maver,
          You are spot on. Tipo 00 is a classification that regulates grind, ash content, moisture, and a very wide range of glutin; everything from pastry flour to bread flour. It's the premium level of Italian flour, but it really doesn't tell you a lot without other information.

          The basic Tipo 00 flour is a general purpose flour designed for pastries and cookies, and then the supermarket also sells a stronger flour designed to be mixed with Tipo 00 for bread.

          Caputo is a Tipo 00 flour, but it is blended for pizza without any re-mixing out of the bag. If you buy a generic Tipo 00 and try it for pizza, you will probably be disappointed.

          Also, there are going to be some very cool announcements from Caputo in the coming months. More to come on that.
          James
          Pizza Ovens
          Outdoor Fireplaces

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

            James,

            I'm really looking forward to trying Caputo flour at some point, maybe for mid-May. The Tipo 00 flour I can get here in Italian markets is from various makers, and it ranges from Whole Wheat to All Purpose. The pizza flour I use is from Divella, based in Rutigliano. The bag says specifically: "consigliate per pizze e pasta sfoglia." The best part about it is the extensibility of the dough. It's much better for this use than other flours I've tried, but members seem to feel Caputo is far superior.

            Jim
            "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.



              Jim, you haven't tried the Caputo flour yet???? Shock and horror. I will have Tammy drop you an email, and we will work something out.
              James
              Pizza Ovens
              Outdoor Fireplaces

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                James,

                Okay, good, let's do that, and thanks.

                Jim
                "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                  Thanks for all the replies! I am trying to make the dough again; and as nice as it was last time, I am trying to perfect it. This time I am trying with more water.

                  Another question: Does kneading the dough in the stand mixer too much have any adverse affect, or can I knead it for as long as I desire and make it better?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                    Lester,

                    Overmixing definitely has a detrimental effect on any dough. What happens is this: kneading develops the gluten structure; overkneading takes the gluten past where it wants to be, and the structure begins to break down, or shred, instead of showing a web of strands when you use the windowpane test on it. Depending on what you're making, you want a finished, fully kneaded dough temperature of between 74 and 81 F. Overkneading will push you well past 81, because stand mixers (planetary) create a lot of friction, hence heat. This kind of heat is not at all good for yeast development, either knocking it back considerably, or ceasing the rising action altogether, and in any event you will get dense, chewy results.

                    Commonly, if dough tears, there is one of two reasons: either it's too dry, or it's not fully kneaded. Learn the windowpane test described in the FB online bread cookbook.

                    What I most often do is knead the dough in my spiral mixer until I'm at the temp I'm after. If the dough is still underdeveloped, I knead it further, by hand, on the bench, until I'm satisfied withe the windowpane characteristics.

                    If you're looking for consistent results, you must reduce your variables. A digital scale is the only way to go. I use a Salter. Weigh everything, including water. You'd be surprised at how inaccurate so-called cup measures really are, glass, metal or plastic.

                    If we all had the luxury of very slow fork mixers from Italy or France, we could increase our kneading times for exceptional gluten development.

                    Jim
                    "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                      For those of us without the luxury of an ideal dough mixer, I suggest using an overhydrated dough initially for the long knead to reduce friction and overheating, then towards the end work in the remaining flour. Does that make sense Jim?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                        Jim,

                        How is a fork mixer different from your current SP5 spiral mixer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                          Richard, Maver,

                          First off, with a spiral mixer, you have a dough hook that's in a fixed position. It turns, sure, but only the bowl actually spins. This is both to reduce friction against the sides of the bowl and to improve ingredient amalgamation; kind of a two way street, if you will. The hook revolution is slower than a planetary, too. By contrast, fork mixers, sometimes called plunge mixers I think, use a two pronged fork that plunges into and turns the dough. The Italian makes are VERY slow; the French ones a bit faster. The fork design provides a much gentler action on the dough and does not generate heat. Far as I can tell, these mixers are made in large commercial sizes, and they're quite expensive. One pizza dough recipe I read called for 15 minutes of kneading in a fork mixer . Not one of us could get away with that; we'd have fried dough. Still, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for smaller, affordable sizes, because I will have to get something larger sooner than later. Don't get me wrong, the SP5 is one fine machine, but I will outgrow the size.

                          Second, Maver, you're almost there. Making high-hydration doughs with the method you describe is part of the answer. But, and it's a big one, the major variable over which you have the most control is your water. With wild yeast doughs unspiked with commercial yeast (those that are meant to be retarded overnight), I keep the temperature of the water on the low side, sometimes as low as 65 F, so I can control the temp of the dough in the mixer. Also, Jeffrey Hamelman in his Bread book recommends much shorter knead times, and then folding the dough once or twice during bulk fermentation. The folding strengthens the gluten structure without risking overheating. Almost all his recommended fully kneaded dough temps are on the low side: 74-76 F, and you can only do this by controlling the water temp. Although it's definitely on the pro side, this is an extremely worthwhile book. At the back, there's a discusssion of friction factors for various mixers. At King Arthur Flour, where he's head bread instructor, he uses a spiral mixer.

                          For doughs that use commercial yeast, either active dry or instant, many recipes call for water in the 90-100F range. Definitely keep it on the lower end of the scale. Rising might be a "bit" slower, but so what?

                          The idea behind all of this is to strike a fine balance: hydration, gluten development and putting the yeast in an ideal spot for the perfect rise. Natch , I get it just right each and every time.

                          Jim
                          "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                            Jim,

                            I have been using the King Arthur 00 pizza blend of flour. It has been ok but the dough has not turned out as I had originally expected. I am wondering if I need to use Vital Wheat Gluten or something to enhance the flour? also, I am in Colorado and at 5,000 ft up I am wondering if a High Altitude adjustment is necessary?

                            Thanks,

                            Ryan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: I finally got Caputo; and a question.

                              Ryan,

                              A touch of vital wheat gluten might help (1tsp for 4 cups flour), though I'm not familiar with that particular KA flour. I think your major problem is altitude. The resident expert on that is Drake Remoray in Denver; I'm sure he will have some help for you.

                              Jim
                              "Made are tools, and born are hands"--William Blake, 1757-1827

                              Comment

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