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Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ? - Forno Bravo Forum: The Wood-Fired Oven Community

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Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

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  • Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

    Hello,

    I am trying to design my oven but am curious if the design I have in mind will be structuraly strong enough to withstand the forces that go with it.

    The image shows the idea I have. The inside will be 19 inch wide (48cm) and 12 inch high (30cm). Full bricks will be used so it will be 8 inch deep (21cm)

    It is going to be placed "in front of the oven". I want to make a heatbrake between the oven and this arch. The arch should also support the vent so the top bricks will be something like half bricks.

    I have a few questions / options that I hope to find some answers for since I do like the design of this entry.....

    1) will this be strong enough without any extra support on the side ? Some wool and stuco will be on the side but I doubt this gives a lot extra of structural strenght.

    2) If I put vermicrete next to this structure (lets say 3 inch) wich will go round the oven, and then some stuco (another inch) will this give enough structural strenght ?

    3) like 2, but now I will put some rebar in the vermicrete, wich goes all the way down into my concrete slab. I am reasonably sure this will give enough strenght... I just do not like to have to drill in the concrete so the rebar can go in there.

    Thanks in advance for any help !
    Attached Files
    Last edited by nachtwacht; 09-13-2013, 04:49 AM. Reason: Just found how I had to post pictures on FB so now it is embedded in the message.

  • #2
    Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

    Originally posted by nachtwacht View Post

    1) will this be strong enough without any extra support on the side ?
    No..................
    The English language was invented by people who couldnt spell.

    My Build.

    Books.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

      You will either have to buttress or apply reinforced cladding.
      Old World Stone & Garden

      Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

      When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
      John Ruskin

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

        Thanks both.

        Any idea on how good vermecrite could / would work as reinforced cladding ?

        Basicaly that is idea 2 and 3. Maybe I should add a 4th ?

        4) use reinforced cladding out of fireproof concrete.

        Will search here also for it. Had looked into buttress allready. I building a low down so have to use that there also (I want to use the rebar and vermicrete on that also) but had not searched for "reinforced cladding".

        thanks so far for the help.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

          Originally posted by nachtwacht View Post
          Hello,

          I am trying to design my oven but am curious if the design I have in mind will be structuraly strong enough to withstand the forces that go with it.

          The image shows the idea I have. The inside will be 19 inch wide (48cm) and 12 inch high (30cm). Full bricks will be used so it will be 8 inch deep (21cm)

          It is going to be placed "in front of the oven". I want to make a heatbrake between the oven and this arch. The arch should also support the vent so the top bricks will be something like half bricks.

          I have a few questions / options that I hope to find some answers for since I do like the design of this entry.....

          1) will this be strong enough without any extra support on the side ? Some wool and stuco will be on the side but I doubt this gives a lot extra of structural strenght.

          2) If I put vermicrete next to this structure (lets say 3 inch) wich will go round the oven, and then some stuco (another inch) will this give enough structural strenght ?

          3) like 2, but now I will put some rebar in the vermicrete, wich goes all the way down into my concrete slab. I am reasonably sure this will give enough strenght... I just do not like to have to drill in the concrete so the rebar can go in there.

          Thanks in advance for any help !

          To be more specific...

          q2 - It depends on how much weight your arch is going to carry. Full masonry chimney, then no, you should use reinforced cladding. If you are installing a SS flue, then yes, your idea will be enough.

          q3- Reinforcement in V-crete ( or perlcrete) wont work well, be cause the insulation has weak binding properties.

          Have you considered a different arch configuration?
          Old World Stone & Garden

          Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

          When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
          John Ruskin

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

            Originally posted by nachtwacht View Post
            Thanks both.

            Any idea on how good vermecrite could / would work as reinforced cladding ?

            Basicaly that is idea 2 and 3. Maybe I should add a 4th ?

            4) use reinforced cladding out of fireproof concrete.

            Will search here also for it. Had looked into buttress allready. I building a low down so have to use that there also (I want to use the rebar and vermicrete on that also) but had not searched for "reinforced cladding".

            thanks so far for the help.
            I didn't document the process on my thread, but I applied 1" RC to my dome, which is a Neapolitan. Shortly after it was cured, I stood on top of it, just for haha's when I was framing the enclosure.

            I do think a layer of v-crete or perlcrete would work, but I feeling it would have to be more than 3"...closer to 6". I will say that I have no data or past experience with this theory, just structural masonry intuition.
            Old World Stone & Garden

            Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

            When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
            John Ruskin

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

              Originally posted by stonecutter View Post
              I didn't document the process on my thread, but I applied 1" RC to my dome, which is a Neapolitan. Shortly after it was cured, I stood on top of it, just for haha's when I was framing the enclosure.

              I do think a layer of v-crete or perlcrete would work, but I feeling it would have to be more than 3"...closer to 6". I will say that I have no data or past experience with this theory, just structural masonry intuition.
              Intresting thread since it is almost the same as I have in mind to be building. What did you use there for cladding ? It is a thin layer. Does not look like you have put any rebar into it. I was thinking about using steel bracing myself around the oven like Tscarborough did wich he shows here here

              Tscarborough still used concrete around it. I however wanted to use vermicrete since I did not want to add more mass to my oven. (I can live with 1 inch like you used though....)

              Back to the entry arch... yes, I have considered other designs including those that are self supporting. It's just that I like this design better than the others. So if it will be to complicated / definatly not strong enough, I can do something else.

              since a picture usualy says more than a thousand words, this is basicaly what I had in mind for option 3) It is a top view and the vermicrete goes all the way round the oven to the other entry arch.

              And yes, it will be a SS double walled pipe so that will not be to heavy....
              Attached Files
              Last edited by nachtwacht; 09-13-2013, 04:50 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                Originally posted by nachtwacht View Post
                Intresting thread since it is almost the same as I have in mind to be building. What did you use there for cladding ? It is a thin layer. Does not look like you have put any rebar into it. I was thinking about using steel bracing myself around the oven like Tscarborough did wich he shows here here

                Tscarborough still used concrete around it. I however wanted to use vermicrete since I did not want to add more mass to my oven. (I can live with 1 inch like you used though....)
                I used wire fencing as reinforcement...one layer wrapping the soldiers horizontally, then another that covered the dome, extending over the soldiers. The cladding layer was around 1" thick, with sand being the only aggregate.

                As mentioned, rebar wont do anything in Vcrete. You could try a couple layers of wire mesh, but I still think the tension will brake up the insulation. But it will be encased with stucco too, so this may be over thinking a bit.
                Old World Stone & Garden

                Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

                When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
                John Ruskin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                  Originally posted by nachtwacht View Post
                  Back to the entry arch... yes, I have considered other designs including those that are self supporting. It's just that I like this design better than the others. So if it will be to complicated / definatly not strong enough, I can do something else.

                  since a picture usualy says more than a thousand words, this is basicaly what I had in mind for option 3) It is a top view and the vermicrete goes all the way round the oven to the other entry arch.

                  And yes, it will be a SS double walled pipe so that will not be to heavy....
                  I built an oven arch like that on my other personal WFO. Besides this one and a pre-cast, all the other ovens I have built, including restoration of historical beehive ovens, have had semi circular or equilateral arches.

                  The solution I came up with for my CT home oven was to set back the sides of my oven opening. Compression from the dome acted like a buttress on the sides of the arch, so the lateral pressure from the walls of my opening were contained. I used no cladding on that oven....I parged the outside of the dome and it was surrounded by insulation batts and loose vermiculite.

                  Here is a picture of the opening....
                  Name:  3b1e2399f0df2d3b7be4438496e75cbc.jpg
Views: 2
Size:  425.9 KB

                  You lose a bit of space doing it that way, but I didn't find it to be a negative at all, because you don't usually cook within the first few inches of the opening anyway. I just didn't want the extra work of building a buttress or have to encapsulate the arch with reinforcement. The only reason I used reinforced cladding on my current oven is because it is a low dome (Neo) with soldiers.

                  Further, my arch carried 3 full lengths of 8"x8" clay flue and a small fire brick 'smoke shelve'.
                  Old World Stone & Garden

                  Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

                  When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
                  John Ruskin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                    Originally posted by stonecutter View Post
                    As mentioned, rebar wont do anything in Vcrete. You could try a couple layers of wire mesh, but I still think the tension will brake up the insulation. But it will be encased with stucco too, so this may be over thinking a bit.
                    ok. You confirmed one of my other things I feared. Vermicrete is probably not good under compression. The rebar will make the vermicrete crack over time and then the rebar is useless, both around the dome and next to the entry arch.

                    So it has to be either a steel wire wich is put tightly against the stones or wire mech (as in chicken wire right ?) and 1 inch of concrete around the dome.

                    However, since the entry arch will be showing about half (the other half will be in the stucco / insulation) I have to come up with a good way of reinforcing that...

                    Anyone ever tried to drill a hole in the concrete slab, put rebar in there, and then also drill a hole in the first 4 stones in my picture ? I don't see them falling then anymore and I would that it is a fairly easy solution. Since I plan to incorportate a thermal break the entry arch should not get to hot and no heat should go into the concrete slab....

                    I should probably file the above as "Option 5"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                      Sorry to clutter up your thread, but I found another image. I didn't buttress the vent wall, I had forgotten about that. No problems there either.

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Views: 1
Size:  707.2 KB

                      Am I telling you not to buttress your arch? Nope..it's good insurance.
                      Old World Stone & Garden

                      Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

                      When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
                      John Ruskin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                        Originally posted by stonecutter View Post
                        I built an oven arch like that on my other personal WFO.
                        Very nice one. I plan to do the same indeed with the first "inside" arch exactly like you did there.

                        However, the arch I am in trouble with, will be in front of it and I do not want to have them "touching". (there will be a small thermal break between the two)

                        Because it is free standing I do not know (yet) if I can get any kind of reinforcement from the oven side... I have to get it from the concrete slab or butress or cladding I think...

                        Thanks for all your input by the way, apreciated !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                          Originally posted by stonecutter View Post
                          Sorry to clutter up your thread, but I found another image. I didn't buttress the vent wall, I had forgotten about that. No problems there either.
                          Nice! Basicaly that is very close to my idea. You do have it connecting to the oven wich will give it some extra support, but I can also get that little bit of extra support. To me it shows that there is some merrit in the idea that I have.... It will need extra support and can not be free standing, thats clear to me now but I can use the arch that I have in mind...

                          nice. Now just have to deside how far back it has to go into the oven because while talking to you and looking at my models, I suddenly realised, like in the last picture you have send, it has to go further into the oven else it would not look nice and round anymore. Next oven I should build from clay. If I don't like it, I make it wet and start over gain

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                            Originally posted by nachtwacht View Post
                            Very nice one. I plan to do the same indeed with the first "inside" arch exactly like you did there.

                            However, the arch I am in trouble with, will be in front of it and I do not want to have them "touching". (there will be a small thermal break between the two)
                            The vent arch was touching on that oven, but contact with the oven arch does not have any structural properties at all, because it was not tied into the masonry behind it. So, it doesn't matter if the oven opening arch and the vent wall arch are butted together or not.

                            My current oven has two thermal breaks. I don't know how effective they are during live fire cooking, but I do see a benefit for baking and longer heat retention. I hadn't incorporated one before, so that's why I did it on this oven.
                            Old World Stone & Garden

                            Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

                            When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
                            John Ruskin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Is this plan (oven entry) structuraly strong enough ?

                              You can see in this pic that the vent is just butted up to the oven opening.

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Views: 1
Size:  765.2 KB

                              If my arch failed, no mortar joint between the twp arches would be enough to prevent it. In a sense, because the two arches are independent, that is a control joint.
                              Old World Stone & Garden

                              Current WFO build - Dry Stone Base & Gothic Vault

                              When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
                              John Ruskin

                              Comment

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